Help with defender suspension

[gusthedog]

Hey all. Am having some difficulties sorting out the suspension on my 04 defender. In need of some help and advice.

Here is the current story. Got some work done on the defender about 2 months ago and decided to put tough dog coils and shocks in. No one here on the border (albury-wodonga area) had much idea about landy's, let alone defenders, but a mate of mine (with a nissan) had nothing but good things to say about the tough dog coils and shocks.


Told the guys at opposite lock that I didnt want a lift kit but wanted to restore the rig to the original ride height (particularly at the front because Im running a ARB steel bar and 9000lb warn). They said that tough dog only made a kit which would raise the height about 35mm. As they did me a good 'package' deal on the rest of the gear I got (twin battery set up, forerunner rear wheel carrier and dolium sill tank) I decided what the hell and went for it. What a disaster. The def sat fairly high which didnt worry me too much but now handled like a pig. It also made a godamn awful shudder when decelerating at 30 and 60 kph through the floor of the vehicle. I assumed that it was the front prop shaft/uni joint thingy (note the technical brilliance here!) as the angle, particularly on the front uni joint, had changed.

Long story short - got a wheel alignment done as a possible solution as the opposite lock boys said that the shudder should not have been caused by such a 'moderate' lift kit and it could be the wheel alignment causing the shudder. The castor was at negative 2 degrees. Bloke I rang from davis performance landy's in sydney said castor on a defender should be more like positive 3 or 4 degrees and that if it was zero or negative, the rig was lifted too high and would need other gear to rectify this (such as adjustable radius arms etc which would cost more than I want to spend).

So miraculously the guys at opposite lock found me a set of standard height but heavy duty springs. Had these installed a couple of weeks ago. Is wandering less on the road but am still having the shuddering problem, particularly decelerating from 70kph to 60kph. Also the ride is absolutely crap. I just drove up to the girlfriends in bathurst and nearly rattled out all my bloody fillings. Ride was so rough I got car sick 30mins into the trip with 4.5 hours to go. Not fun.

Am planning on taking out the springs and shocks and looking for something that is actually better than stock and not bowel shakingly bad. Am towing a camper trailer around oz next year and will have around 300kgs of stuff in the back of the rig. Any suggestions on the best suspension set up for long distance touring on outback roads with this sort of set up?? Im after comfort (particularly) but dont want the rig to handle too much like a pig either. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[rar110]

I fitted a set of Dobinson springs about 2 years ago. Because the previous springs were so flat the new springs raised the vehicle considerably. The road handling suffered badly and I also get a vibration through the front at about 60km/h when decelerating.

I was considering buying Lovell springs which would lower the 110 by about 35mm from memory. However, the current height is standard according to County 110 specs, but up to 2" taller than Defender specs.

I have got used to the handling, castor correction bushes helped. I can't identify the source of the vibration. After doing a lot of reading I suspect the prop shaft.

[Xtreme]

The set-up I've found more than satisfactory (have fitted it to a '94 Defender and a couple of '03 Defender Xtremes) for general touring and moderate load carrying is as follows -
1. Replace OE front progressive rate springs with the LR recommended HD ones, which are the same as standard front 130 springs. This will lift the front back to original spec and will carry your bar and winch load.
2. Stick with standard OE rear springs but fot Polyair bags.
3. Fit decent shocks (Bilsteins or Koni's) all round.

The front springs are pretty cheap but the shocks will set you back a few $$$ but are worth it when you encounter the corrugated roads.

I've never had vibration problems as you and rar110 describe but then I've never found it necessary to give the vehicle a lift.

[spudboy]

These guys have a good name when it comes to suspension setup:

Les Richmond Automotive (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/index1.html)

I can't put a link in to the Springs page, so you will have to navigate there yourself. Find the page that says this:

Land Rover’s are still the best riding 4WD on the market. The suspension geometry is superior to all current and past 4WD’s up to date. The success of the Land Rover suspension is the ability to articulate or cross the axles keeping all four wheels on the ground giving the vehicle maximum drive and traction with an extremely comfortable ride.


Springs are not used in Land Rovers as a handling component but more for load carrying and height adjustment. Setting up a vehicles suspension is as individual as the drivers. This is why Les Richmond Automotive manufactures more than 13 sizes of springs to suit Land Rovers.


Springs need to be chosen to suit the vehicles load carrying requirements and height requirements and the vehicles use. The choice of a coil springs also needs to take into account the amount of wheel travel the vehicle has.


The maximum heights LR Automotive set standard vehicles to without causing steering problems or vibrations are as follows.

And you're in the right place.
HTH
David

[Larry]

The set-up I've found more than satisfactory (have fitted it to a '94 Defender and a couple of '03 Defender Xtremes) for general touring and moderate load carrying is as follows -
1. Replace OE front progressive rate springs with the LR recommended HD ones, which are the same as standard front 130 springs. This will lift the front back to original spec and will carry your bar and winch load.
2. Stick with standard OE rear springs but fot Polyair bags.
3. Fit decent shocks (Bilsteins or Koni's) all round.

The front springs are pretty cheap but the shocks will set you back a few $$$ but are worth it when you encounter the corrugated roads.

I've never had vibration problems as you and rar110 describe but then I've never found it necessary to give the vehicle a lift.

I have the same set up as Roger has said, H/Ds in the front & standards in the rear with Konis all round. There is a steel bull bar & Warn high mount winch up front but the vehicle sits nice & level with no handling problems.:thumbsup:

[Bigmark]

Shaft vibrations maybe, maybe the lift did something there to the universal joints.
Just thinking out loud

[gusthedog]

Thanks Bigmark, Larry, Spudboy, Xtreme and Rar110. Appreciate the feedback. Had an interesting conversation with Bruce Davis (from Davis Performance Landy in Sydney) this arvo. He suggested that if the vehicle is lifted at all that the front uni joint/prop shaft assembly may either go out of balance or vibrate more due to the increased angle of operation. The cheapest way to fix this is to drop the height of the transfer case which would involve stuffing around witht he length of gear shift etc. Otherwise I can go for adjustable radius arms, castor correction bushes etc etc which is the bigger money route.

Alternatively he suggested to put the OE springs back in and that he can make up a spacer for the front coils to bring the ride height back to standard. He reckons that this is the way to go dollar wise if Im not interested in getting a lift kit. This sounds good for the hip pocket but I was wondering if any one has done this and what the ride is like? Is it really as good as it was before the bar/winch was put on? Or perhaps even with the spacers are the coils compressed too much to offer a good ride (ie does it take the 'compliance' out of the coils)?

Seems Ive opened a can of worms :eek:. On the plus side, am learning more about suspension that I ever though I would :BigThumb:.

[Chucaro]

If I was in your shoes I go by what Bruce recommended. He is good!

[Jock The Rock]

I don't think there would be too much difference with the suspension in a 95' Defender and yours

I fitted a 45mm lift in mine. By the way of 4 Boss Adjustable shocks and Dobinson springs, the rears being slightly heavier duty (to accomodate an extra 350kg)

It was a bit expensive, but because the shocks are adjustable I can either ride like a race car or have an overly soft ride.

I set mine in the middle for everyday driving

I didn't have any problems with vibrations or the like, only that it pulled to the right heavily. But thats another story because of the Bilstein Steering Damper

I know its a bit late, but maybe a 'for next time' post ;)

[Michael2]

I've got a 2" lifted '97 Defender and it didn't have the vibration issue ever, nor did it handle badly. It's got the OME (ARB) Springs and Bilsteins on the back and the OME Shocks on the front, till I replace them with Bilsteins.

I got the vibration you speak of for the first time a couple of weeks ago, so I can't contribute it to the suspension. It started after I took the muddies off from a 4WD trip and put the road tyres back on, but I put one of the rear wheels on the front. I checked all the suspension components and replaced a very very slightly worn front uni, but the problem resolved by moving the poorly balanced wheel to the back again.

Speaking to a Land Rover workshop guy, the wheel balance, and then the front steering shocker would be the first 2 most likely candidates for this vibration, though other recent posts on this forum dealing with this issue also list other possible causes.

Given that the County sat higher, and so many Defenders have been lifted without issue, it may be more prudent to check all the cheap stuff first.

Good luck with it, and let us know what transpires.

[Michael2]

Speaking to a Land Rover workshop guy, the wheel balance, and then the front steering shocker would be the first 2 most likely candidates for this vibration, though other recent posts on this forum dealing with this issue also list other possible causes.




Just an update, I resolved most of the shudder by changing the wheel, it came back with less intensity. I checked the steering damper, which seemed fine, and I extended and compressed it a couple of times, before refitting it and tightening it up a bit more - that's solved it. So I'd say check that the pin end of the damper is done up really tight.

- Michael

[Brid]

G'day Gus

Why not drop the front prop shaft and take it for a run? That way you will determine if it is the culprit or not...at not cost of trial and error with mods etc.

Defender springs seem to sag quickly from my experience. Like others, I replaced the fronts with the OE heavy duty (same as 130 fronts), and they have solved things for me. My rears are still standard, but I also plan to fit poly air bags, so that I can adjust for the heaviest loads, while good empty still.

The rears have sagged a bit, and they are also progressive rate, and I expect with a little assist from the air bags, the progressive loops will lift apart a little and improve ride. That's the theory anyway. The HD fronts cost me $77 ea, and I have been quoted about $340 for the air bags.

God luck with it.

[defenderkev]

I would be checking your propshafts, remove either front or rear then take it for a drive, then swap over and take it for a drive again.

When i lifted my Defender within a week or so i had a horrible vibration.I did the above mentioned and found the rear uni completely shagged out.
I guess changing the angle killed the uni off.

[Disco44]

I had a series 3 stage 1 3.9D. It had a strange front prop shaft which I wonder could be an answer to the vibration problems that you are suffering. Maybe the experts have an answer.The prop shaft in question I know was expensive a mate of mine had to replace his in Darwin and it cost a fortune.Can anyone add to this...my gearbox was an LT95.
Cheers.

[DeeJay]

[Quote

Alternatively he suggested to put the OE springs back in and that he can make up a spacer for the front coils to bring the ride height back to standard. He reckons that this is the way to go dollar wise if Im not interested in getting a lift kit. This sounds good for the hip pocket but I was wondering if any one has done this and what the ride is like? Is it really as good as it was before the bar/winch was put on? Or perhaps even with the spacers are the coils compressed too much to offer a good ride (ie does it take the 'compliance' out of the coils)?

I've used spacers to bring sagging springs back to "normal" without any issues. Sounds like Bruce Davis is on the money. I could'nt notice any ride difference, after all its the same spring doing the same job if you think about it.

[gusthedog]

Well Ive decided to follow Deejay's, Chucaro's and Bruce Davis' recommendation and had the old OE springs put back in yesterday. The truck seems to be sagging a little in the front but thats to be expected and its no more than about 20 to 30mm by my eye.

Was chatting to my mechanic in albury and he is going to give me a hand to fit some spacers (Im a bit stumped when it comes to fitting or re-fitting springs myself) next weekend in his own time to try and save me some money. Thought that was pretty cool. Have to order the spacers from Bruce yet though. Will get onto that ASAP.

Brid:

Why not drop the front prop shaft and take it for a run? That way you will determine if it is the culprit or not...at not cost of trial and error with mods etc.


My mechanic suggested this but Opposite Lock said they'd re-fit the OE springs for naught (as their bloody springs caused the problem in the first place and I only want the vehicle to be at standard height). I thought I'd try that first because Ive been flat out and dont have time to scratch myself (Am off to the GP tomorrow - Go Stoner!)

So thanks all for your advice. Will let you all know how it goes with the spacers but the initial feeling is that there is no shudder anywhere now when Im decelerating (which means it wasnt the cooper ST tyres I had fitted at the same time as the tough dog springs).

[lardy]

[Quote

Alternatively he suggested to put the OE springs back in and that he can make up a spacer for the front coils to bring the ride height back to standard. He reckons that this is the way to go dollar wise if Im not interested in getting a lift kit. This sounds good for the hip pocket but I was wondering if any one has done this and what the ride is like? Is it really as good as it was before the bar/winch was put on? Or perhaps even with the spacers are the coils compressed too much to offer a good ride (ie does it take the 'compliance' out of the coils)?

I've used spacers to bring sagging springs back to "normal" without any issues. Sounds like Bruce Davis is on the money. I could'nt notice any ride difference, after all its the same spring doing the same job if you think about it.
I understand that spacers under coils are not recommended and are considered dangerous .....

[lardy]

Why dont you get your uj's checked before you do anything drastic you may have just highlighted and issue with the props

[roverspec]

if you haven't fixed it yet. i say it is the wrong shaft or possibly by accident the unis at the end have been put in line with each other and it is now out of balance. if you need help in brizzy go to MR auto in redcliffe, they are really good.

[clean32]

hi

i haven't had this problem but if it was me i would do all the cheep stuff first. most has already been covered.

1 Balance all wheels first.
2 take out the front drive shaft, lock in the center diff and go for a drive.
3 check the shock bushes are nice and tight and that the bottom ones have the correct boult bush size.

Please explain the handling problems

[Bush65]

I had a series 3 stage 1 3.9D. It had a strange front prop shaft which I wonder could be an answer to the vibration problems that you are suffering. Maybe the experts have an answer.The prop shaft in question I know was expensive a mate of mine had to replace his in Darwin and it cost a fortune.Can anyone add to this...my gearbox was an LT95.
Cheers.
The stage 1 front driveshaft has a double cardan joint at the t/case end.

[Bush65]

I understand that spacers under coils are not recommended and are considered dangerous .....
If spacers are too thick there is a risk that the coils can close up solid (coil bind, i.e. no space between adjacent coils) at full bump. Normally the rubber bump stops prevent this.

If coil bind happens excessive forces are put through the spring perches (instead of through the rubber bump stops) and leads to cracks in the chassis.

If this is likely, the fix is to put appropriate spacers between the chassis and the bump stop.

[Bush65]

I know some tough dog shockies use foam cell. They have a range of different size shockies and I don't know if foam cell is common to all.

Foam cell shockies will not last on outback corrugations - the heat that is generated by km's of corrugations cause the foam to break up, and when this happens the oil aerates and you have no working shockies.

[roverspec]

i know for sure the Ironman Foam cell shockies or Cross Country shockies handle heat and corrigation very well.

Mine have been under my disco for 6 years and there still no give at all in them.

carla

Food for thought

[lochie]

Gusthedog I fitted 130 front springs with lr shockers [std] with polyair and standard shockers on the rear approx 5-6 years ago.Since then I've done the following treks over the years.Gibb river road and most of the attractions,Bungle, Bungles,Cape Leveque,Louella Springs and other off-road diversions.Also the Cairns to Broome run all these excursions towing a off road camper trailer-unbraked.Since the update I've travelled approx. 50-60 thousand K's without any problems as far as the suspension goes or ride.I hope this is of some help and the best of luck. Lochie

[Xtreme]

Gusthedog I fitted 130 front springs with lr shockers [std] with polyair and standard shockers on the rear approx 5-6 years ago.Since then I've done the following treks over the years.Gibb river road and most of the attractions,Bungle, Bungles,Cape Leveque,Louella Springs and other off-road diversions.Also the Cairns to Broome run all these excursions towing a off road camper trailer-unbraked.Since the update I've travelled approx. 50-60 thousand K's without any problems as far as the suspension goes or ride.I hope this is of some help and the best of luck. Lochie

Further testimony to a great suspension set-up for touring Defenders - although those std LR shocks must be getting a little tired by now.

[gusthedog]

Well just wanted to say thanks all. Its been ages but it looks like Ive finally sorted the bloody suspension out. Went for the 130 springs in the front and have kept the tough dog ralph shocks. Took my local landrover bloke 3 weeks but they are finally in. No vibration in the driveline and has raised the sagging front 40 mm to near perfectly where it should be.

Now ive got the suspension sorted im off to davis performance landy's for a few go fast bits next week. :cool:. Cant wait.

[Tombie]

Now ive got the suspension sorted im off to davis performance landy's for a few go fast bits next week. :cool:. Cant wait.

What are you getting done?

[Barra1]

Now ive got the suspension sorted im off to davis performance landy's for a few go fast bits next week. :cool:. Cant wait.

Why:(

Send a PM to Tombie;)

[gusthedog]

Im getting an intercooler, chip and exhaust. I wanted to take it to someone to get it all fitted - the local bloke here doesnt know ****. Bruce Davis is going to check over the car fully as part of the install to ensure the vehicle can handle the upgrades (clutch etc). Also the vehicle is due for the 80 thou service and Im getting a pretrip inspection done. Im off around australia in less than a month and wanted a bit more power for towing. I know Im going for overkill but it will be fun
:burnrubber:

I believe you are in South Australia Tombie?? Have heard great things about your chip upgrade. Pitty you arn't closer.

[Barra1]

Im getting an intercooler, chip and exhaust. I wanted to take it to someone to get it all fitted - the local bloke here doesnt know ****. Bruce Davis is going to check over the car fully as part of the install to ensure the vehicle can handle the upgrades (clutch etc). Also the vehicle is due for the 80 thou service and Im getting a pretrip inspection done. Im off around australia in less than a month and wanted a bit more power for towing. I know Im going for overkill but it will be fun
:burnrubber:

I believe you are in South Australia Tombie?? Have heard great things about your chip upgrade. Pitty you arn't closer.

I guess you haven't met Ivan Clarke (Wodonga). Would save you heaps in time and money - not to mention the opportunity to meet a top bloke who is fair dinkum about the service he provides.

I understand who you may be referring to and therefore the reasoning behind heading to Sydney but don't sell the local area short. Ivan knows his stuff.;)

Gusthedog - do yourself a favor and take the time to introduce yourself to Ivan. He actually travelled with me to Whyalla where Tombie performed his magic on my Defender. The intercooler will be fitted early next year, of course by Ivan.

I head north each year pulling quite a large boat and the upgrade including exhaust, EGR removal has been nothing short of fantastic even without the intercooler upgrade:D

[gusthedog]

Well I havn't put any money down yet barra.... Had no idea there was someone good in Wodonga. Have lived in Smalbury for a decade and this is my 4th landrover too. Will take the time to call ivan tomorrow. Still have to go to sydney tho - my cousin just had a bub and I also managed to pick up six 16x8 repainted defender steel sunraysia rims on ebay the other day - for only 100 bucks!! Bargain of the century I reckon! And they're matt black too!

Thanks again barra, will contact Ivan and see how I go. I know davis is expensive (I had my old disco chipped there) so any money saved would be great.

[Barra1]

Phone 60 24 6664;)

4 Land Rovers - that puts you in the class of Enthusiast or possibly, Tragic:o

[Benny_IIA]

Phone 60 24 6664;)

4 Land Rovers - that puts you in the class of Enthusiast or possibly, Tragic:o


I've only got 3.5 land rovers.

thats normal:D

[gusthedog]

I've only got 3.5 land rovers.

thats normal:D


Phone 60 24 6664;)

4 Land Rovers - that puts you in the class of Enthusiast or possibly, Tragic:o

Thanks fellas! Im fairly sure some of it has been tragic but I consider myself an enthusiast. :BigThumb: Ive had a 96 defender (which I rolled 50kms from Madura in SA, by myself in the desert :eek: - took 10 hours to put back on the wheels - Looong story), a 96 disco, 99 disco and now I have the 04 defender.

Will call Ivan today.

[Grasmere Tom]

Hi all,
This is my first post here and I am very much a novice. I am working on a complete rebuild of a 1993 defender 110. I am going to fit a 300tdi and R380 I have for it (was bought minus engine & gear box). At the moment I am trying to decide what suspension parts (shocks, springs, steering damper and all chassis bushes) etc to get. I am confused by the conflicting recommendations for Bilsteins ? Konis ? OME ? Kings ? Lovell etc !
I will have steel bull bars but not a winch, I want to have a standard ride height, not raised or lowered. I will not be doing extreme off-roading or rock climbing - I might do some towing from time to time and just want a set-up that will give the best possible ride and handling for raod and mild off road conditions. I want to put in the best parts I can. I have seen the company "Suspension stuff" recommended on here as advisors - I would appreciate any and all advice.
Thanks
Tom

[Xtreme]

Rear Springs - Standard Defender 110
Front Springs - Standard Defender 130 (which are the recommended HD front spring for the 110)
Koni shocks all round.

I've been running this setup in various 110 Defenders since 1993 and am very happy with it. Maintains standard ride height, carries a load when required (even with extra fuel, water etc for a number of remote area trips) and rides well under all load conditions.

[Grasmere Tom]

Thanks Extreme - I really appreciate your reply mate - any advice regarding the bushes? The Land Rover tool box guy on YouTube seems to favour the bushes that have a metal insert rather than poly only bushes.
Thanks so much again,
T

[Xtreme]

Thanks Extreme - I really appreciate your reply mate - any advice regarding the bushes? The Land Rover tool box guy on YouTube seems to favour the bushes that have a metal insert rather than poly only bushes.
Thanks so much again,
T
I've only ever used genuine LR bushes and have had no trouble with them. Be careful of cheap imitation ones - I have seen cheaper ones with very poor quality rubber chop out in less than 2000kms.

[Grasmere Tom]

Thanks again Roger, much appreciated, Tom

[DazzaTD5]

I've only just skimmed through this thread, mostly as I get frustrated at hearing about.... such and such at DUM Offroad Super store said they fit suspension to Defenders all the time bluh bluh... and the end result it handles, rides, shudders, "they cant get the alignment right", "you need to trim the front with some u-buet off set bluh bluhs" like a complete dog.

Its taken me many years to get suspension right on Defenders, often because each time one comes in the customers requirements are different. I do use Terrafirma suspension, I'm not saying their products are the be all and end all, but I generally find their specifications are what the glossy sales info says and mostly because I've worked out the short falls over the years.

Anyway, my point...
The de-acceleration vibration is the from prop shaft as its working outside of its designed angle, keep in mind though not all Defenders will suffer this. I use a heavy duty front prop shaft for a Discovery 2 and fit a Discovery 2 front output flange.

British Parts of Utah
Discovery Front Driveshaft Drive Shaft TVB000110 (http://www.britishpartsofutah.com/Discovery-Front-Driveshaft-Drive-Shaft-TVB000110-p/rcd2fds2.htm)

Regards
Daz

[Xtreme]

In the hundreds of thousands of kms I've done in various Defenders, I've never experienced the so called prop shaft vibration ................ but then again, I've always found that standard height was satisfactory. ;)

[DazzaTD5]

In the hundreds of thousands of kms I've done in various Defenders, I've never experienced the so called prop shaft vibration ................ but then again, I've always found that standard height was satisfactory. ;)

You have answered your own comment there, "but then again, I've always found that standard height was satisfactory"

Its not a "so called prop shaft vibration", its a factual thing that happens, most new Defender TDCi (puma) can suffer it in the most tiniest way, as in most arent even picked up. More common is with a Defender TD5 thats had the worn out lower than standard ride height suspension replaced with a 2in over standard ride height, and to be fair the front shaft prolly has a good amount of wear in it already.

Regards
Daz