Replacing tappets, Cam and Rockers

[PaulP38a]

After reading through some articles at RPI Engineering RPi Engineering - V8 Engines (http://www.v8engines.com/engine-4.htm#inside) I'm concerned that the tappet noise I'm getting in the "refreshed" engine is due to misalignment of the rocker shaft(s) when I reinstalled them, or perhaps that I should have put a shimmy kit in. I didn't even think to check "Tappet pre-load"...

Fortunately, I hope, I've done less than 100Km so far and the tappet noise is not overly loud but still noticable after the engine has been running for a few minutes.

I'm pretty sure power is down a bit from before the "refresh" so maybe I've put the exhaust gaskets on upside-down-reversed too. :o

Has anyone had experience with the Camhaft, Lifter and Timing Chain kit from RPI Engineering Range Land Rover V8 P38 Camshaft Gems Thor 4.0 4.6 RPi on eBay (end time 06-Nov-09 08:18:09 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190340176834&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en) and Rocker Shaft kit Rockers shafts V8 Engine Land Rover SD1 TVR Kit Car Rpi on eBay (end time 26-Oct-09 08:12:23 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rockers-shafts-V8-Engine-Land-Rover-SD1-TVR-Kit-Car-Rpi_W0QQitemZ190337739432QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Car sParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item2c51036aa8)
or can suggest a local alternative?

Thanks, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The question is, when you put it back together, did you put new lifters on an old cam, new lifters and new cam or if you used all the original parts, did you put the lifters back into the same bores and lobes they run on??
With the latter, you can get differing levels of wear on all lobes and cross installing them will alter the wear pattern on them causing accelerated wear.
Same thing with new lifters on an old cam if the cam lobes are worn and haven't been at least linnished.
In all my years in the OEM engine game, I have never seen the need to shim rockerposts on a hydraulic cam as it defeats the purpose of what a hydraulic cam is. If the lifter clearances are out then you can usually assume that there is wear beyond tolerances and replacing both is the only correct option.

With regards to the RPi cam kits, I have spoken to Chris a few times and without re-chipping, it's not really worth the effort. In his words, stay with a STD cam and as I have found in my classic, even stage 1 upgrade cams will give you dramas as I have found with a Dynotec PC216.

You can get the Rollmaster timing kits locally

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

Thanks for your suggestions Andrew.


The question is, when you put it back together, did you put new lifters on an old cam, new lifters and new cam or if you used all the original parts, did you put the lifters back into the same bores and lobes they run on??
With the latter, you can get differing levels of wear on all lobes and cross installing them will alter the wear pattern on them causing accelerated wear.
Same thing with new lifters on an old cam if the cam lobes are worn and haven't been at least linnished.
In all my years in the OEM engine game, I have never seen the need to shim rockerposts on a hydraulic cam as it defeats the purpose of what a hydraulic cam is. If the lifter clearances are out then you can usually assume that there is wear beyond tolerances and replacing both is the only correct option.
I put all the original parts back on. I'm pretty sure I put them back in the same order as I made a map and carfully labelled the position of each individual lifter and pushrod.
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/333-1/RR-Engine-145.JPG
I did not disassemble the rocker shafts at all.
I did clean the lifters, pushrods and shafts with WD-40 and clean engine oil before reassembly and then gave it all a good coating of clean engine oil when assembled.
Now you've got me thinking though... I wonder if I might have mixed up the lifters while cleaning them?



With regards to the RPi cam kits, I have spoken to Chris a few times and without re-chipping, it's not really worth the effort. In his words, stay with a STD cam and as I have found in my classic, even stage 1 upgrade cams will give you dramas as I have found with a Dynotec PC216.

You can get the Rollmaster timing kits locally


Thanks, no plans to re-chip at this stage, if ever. I was considering their standard kits rather than the upgrade kits.

I think that perhaps I should take the car over to Canberra Motor Works and let them have a look at it. Time to call in the experts to check my work ;)

Cheers, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I am picking probably more a wear / age thing than anything. If they are still the original lifters, they will more than likely be due for a change. Pushrods generally arent a problem and it doesnt make that much if any difference if they get swapped over.

The ticking may actually be the pushrod seats in the rocker arms themselves. This has caused many a wrongly needed lifter change and has been documented by LR as a fault. The steel seat comes loose in the casting and manifests itself as a ticking. I have tried to find the LR bulletin I know I had in a pdf file but can't seem to find it anywhere ;)... along with a whole bunch of service bulletins I know i had ;);). I used to have a link to EBSCOhost with all the bulletins available, now thats changed to something else too... AAARRGGHH :wallbash:

If you have Rave, I think its in there somewhere depending on what version you have.
There is a date range on the genuine arm that can be checked to see what version you have.
Maybe check with JC as he would possibly have this somewhere unless I can find it in the meantime...

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

I am picking probably more a wear / age thing than anything. If they are still the original lifters, they will more than likely be due for a change. Pushrods generally arent a problem and it doesnt make that much if any difference if they get swapped over.

The ticking may actually be the pushrod seats in the rocker arms themselves. This has caused many a wrongly needed lifter change and has been documented by LR as a fault. The steel seat comes loose in the casting and manifests itself as a ticking. I have tried to find the LR bulletin I know I had in a pdf file but can't seem to find it anywhere ;)... along with a whole bunch of service bulletins I know i had ;);). I used to have a link to EBSCOhost with all the bulletins available, now thats changed to something else too... AAARRGGHH :wallbash:

If you have Rave, I think its in there somewhere depending on what version you have.
There is a date range on the genuine arm that can be checked to see what version you have.
Maybe check with JC as he would possibly have this somewhere unless I can find it in the meantime...

Cheers

Andrew

the pushrods seating issue wouldn't surprise me, even at the lifter/tappet end. I noticed that a couple of them didn't seem to hold all that well at the lifter end when they were dry.

Safest bet seems to be get CMW to check it out and give me quote to supply new lifters, rockers and arms.

I'll check out those bulletins on Rave too. thanks again.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Hi Paul
1. what oil are you using? If you have been generous with the WD40 (not good idea :( they may be leaking down real quick. Don't use Mobil 1 or full synthetics, they don't promote enough rotation needed to maintain an even wear pattern. For Canberra climate, the Magnatec 15W-40W (as used in diesels) is an excellent choice for the 4/4.6L P38. Also did you "bleed" the lifters before you reinstalled so that they were almost full of oil?
Just a thought before you panic!

2. The combined postage weight of rockers, new shafts and lifters vs replacement cost may make it worth your while to buy them from the UK vs, the often extraordinary replacement cost demanded by local suppliers :angrylock:

Have now bought 3 packages of stuff in from Jaguar | Land Rover spare parts at British Parts UK (http://www.britishparts.co.uk/) and with the A$=GBP 56p approx, it's a good time to buy up! :p

PS the observation from Lovemyrangie re. loose seats in the rockers is valid... hence my need to replace rockers and lifters recently....

cheers
A.

[PaulP38a]

Hi Paul
1. what oil are you using? If you have been generous with the WD40 (not good idea :( they may be leaking down real quick. Don't use Mobil 1 or full synthetics, they don't promote enough rotation needed to maintain an even wear pattern. For Canberra climate, the Magnatec 15W-40W (as used in diesels) is an excellent choice for the 4/4.6L P38. Also did you "bleed" the lifters before you reinstalled so that they were almost full of oil?
Just a thought before you panic!
Pretty sure last oil change was done at Canberra Motor Works and I know they use Valvoline Durablend (10W-40 I think) for my Rangie. That would have been a few months ago.
Didn't know about bleeding lifters :o but I do now... No panic here... more like frustration at myself.

The prices at BritishParts are quite good. If I had the spare cash (not much of that with Landies in the family), now would be a good time to stock up on a few spares.


PS the observation from Lovemyrangie re. loose seats in the rockers is valid... hence my need to replace rockers and lifters recently....
I'm guessing that you had to change over the valley gasket and ends seals too? What else did you have to change? e.g. o-ring on cooling rail to manifold, rocker cover gaskets and bolts, upper manifold gasket? Just trying to figure what "new" bits I'm going to have to swap over again.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Hi Paul
bought a valley gasket replacement kit which included all O-rings, end bits, rocker cover gaskets etc. also bought some Loctite 518 flange sealant ---used on valley gasket and also on both sides of rocker cover gaskets etc...excellent stuff. Also got some Loctite "BlueMax" 587 OEM spec RTV silicone rubber sealent.

didn't have to change rocker cover bolts.. they are only tightened to a couple of ft/lbs. The later gaskets have brass bushes in the bolt holes to preclude the gasket from being overtightened and squashed.

I did note from your photos that there seemed to be a lot of "crud" on the push rods prior to cleaning... indicates that the oil may not have been changed for quite a while:eek: they should be crud-free and a light brown colour.

I'd recommend you use the Magnatec 15-40W diesel and to flush out the rest of the rubbish take it on a run to Yass - Goulburn -Cbr and back and see if it settles down before doing major surgery.. just a thought

[justinc]

I agree with hoges, 100km isn't enough yet. Give it a run and change the oil again before pulling it apart again.

I don't clean rocker shafts etc at all if they are cruddy from lack of oil changing, they will develop all sorts of problems if you dissassemble and reassemble them. In that instance replace with new if you want to.

Have seen a few worn inserts in rocker arms too, well worth a look if the oil changing and a 1000km or so of driving doesn't shut it up.

Yes, a 15W40 is good but in really cold Canberra weather a 10W40 will be fine. Avoid Synthetics for an older engine.

JC

[Hoges]

agree re oil...I run mainly 10W-40W mineral-based even in Bris... the 15W-40W Magnatec diesel formulation however has somewhat more effective detergent properties and holds the " muck" in suspension longer ..
cheers

[justinc]

The question is, when you put it back together, did you put new lifters on an old cam, new lifters and new cam or if you used all the original parts, did you put the lifters back into the same bores and lobes they run on??
With the latter, you can get differing levels of wear on all lobes and cross installing them will alter the wear pattern on them causing accelerated wear.
Same thing with new lifters on an old cam if the cam lobes are worn and haven't been at least linnished.
In all my years in the OEM engine game, I have never seen the need to shim rockerposts on a hydraulic cam as it defeats the purpose of what a hydraulic cam is. If the lifter clearances are out then you can usually assume that there is wear beyond tolerances and replacing both is the only correct option.

With regards to the RPi cam kits, I have spoken to Chris a few times and without re-chipping, it's not really worth the effort. In his words, stay with a STD cam and as I have found in my classic, even stage 1 upgrade cams will give you dramas as I have found with a Dynotec PC216.
You can get the Rollmaster timing kits locally

Cheers

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

RE that PC216, I have had issues with poor vacuum with the 217, but the 216 and 215 are great profiles for a rover V8, both auto and manual IMHO. Did you dial it in etc?

JC

[PaulP38a]

Thanks for the suggestions blokes. I got some Durablend 10W-40 today and was planning to change oil until I found the list that SWMBO left for me...:(

After mowing the lawns and breaking a whipper-snipper in the process (so the edges look rough, what me worry? :wasntme:) ... nuking the BBQ clean (and then it rained so couldn't use it anyway)... moving wheels and other car parts from the front courtyard to around the back of the house... I didn't really feel like getting filthy under the Rangie. So did a couple of "roundtiut" jobs on the Astra... cut the cable ties holding the passenger rear window up and put a new window cable mechanism in... after much cursing, scratches and jammed fingers it works..., and then swapped the factory Blaupunkt for the old JVC CD/DVD/MP3 unit out of the Rangie.

Assuming that a new list does not manifest itself in the morning, I'll change the oil in the Rangie and run with it for a while... and try not to think too much about cams, lifters and other things that involve pulling the top off the engine again :)

Cheers, Paul.

[PhilipA]

Paul, just to clear up a couple of points .

You only use a shim kit if the preload on the tappets is too much ie over 50thou. This is usually caused by having the heads skimmed. The problem of too much preload will cause pumping up of the tappets at a lower revs than normal ie 5500 or so. You can disregard this if you use anti pump up tappets like Crane 215. ( I wonder if these will still be available from someone now Crane has gone bankrupt).

There should be no noise issue as tappet noise is caused by too little or no preload which is primarily a wear issue or maybe a thicker than normal head gasket or maybe a cam with a smaller than standard base circle diameter than specified.

If you have a too little preload problem and are sure everything like tappets, rockers,camwear etc are OK then the fix is to machine the bases of the rocker pedestals, But I would think this would be rarely called for.

My only reservation re buying from RPi is that it gets very tiresome if something goes wrong to negotiate fixes internationally, and return faulty goods etc. IMHO many local cams are "knock offs" of foreign manufacturers' cams so you may be able to get a similar cam locally. LOL

Maybe Justin c or Andrew can suggest a supplier


Regards Philip A

[PaulP38a]

Thanks Philip - that makes sense. Not sure if I will buy from RPI yet... will see what CMW have to say and what sort of price they can give me.

Changed the oil over today - tappet noise is still there, especially a few minutes after starting it for the first time after the change. Listen here:
YouTube - P38A Tappet Noise

After recording this I switched off the engine and let is sit for 10mins to let the oil settle and then topped it up another 600ml. All up, used 5.6L of Valvoline DuraBlend 10-40W.

The old oil was quite black as expected, but on a positive note there were no signs of metal filings or other debris in there :)

... and here's the exhaust just for the fun of it, around the same time.
YouTube - P38A Exhaust

cheers, Paul.

[PhilipA]

Paul, I must have missed an earlier post on this. I was away for 3 months.
tell me again what you did with the engine and were the tappets like that before?
But Jumping Jehosaphat they are NOISY.

Regards Philip A

[Traco]

It is possible to get adjustable pushrods for them but these shouldn't be necessary with hydraulic camshafts.

I know some people like Dynotec cams (TRS fit them to many engines) but after reading poor reviews on the Holden V8 forums, I considered the RPI/Piper cams, however I eventually went for a Crower 50229 which is a Buick 215/300 cam much liked by 4x4 owners in the US, along with Eaton lifters.

I agree you do have to be a bit careful which oil you put in these engines nowadays. Old school flat tappet camshaft pushrod motors like oils with high concentrations of zinc/phosphate which most modern oils designed for roller cams don't have due to the fact these damage catalytic converters.

Using new synthetic and mineral based oils will mean even more rapid camshaft wear will ensue than usual (an RV8 weakness to start with). Oils with high levels of zinc still in them is what's safest - Redline or Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil if you're rich, K-Mart KMX if you're poor (actually made by Shell).

[PaulP38a]

Paul, I must have missed an earlier post on this. I was away for 3 months. tell me again what you did with the engine and were the tappets like that before?
But Jumping Jehosaphat they are NOISY.

I think the recording made them sound alot noisier than they really were, and the engine had only been running for a few minutes after the oil change, plus was down approx 0.5L of oil.

The sad story is covered elsewhere, but in a nutshell:


I decided to "refresh" the engine by changing the head gaskets, spark plugs, HT leads and most hoses over to new ones
got a new/reco head and Elring composite gaskets
put it all back together and it runs ok
tappets are noisy and the engine power does feel down a bit

I do not recall the tappets being that noisy before the "refresh"... hence why I'm thinking that I might have put them back in the wrong order.

Put another 100Km on the car today... still noisy but perhaps a bit quiter than yesterday.

Cheers, Paul.

[PhilipA]

I wonder if the head place gave you steel gasket heads as they are about 30thou thicker than composite heads.

Did the heads have 10 bolt holes or an extra row on the outside edge?

I do not know whether the heads changed to 10 bolt at exactly the same time as the composite gaskets were introduced .

But that could be an explanation.
Regards Philip A

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Hi Andrew,

RE that PC216, I have had issues with poor vacuum with the 217, but the 216 and 215 are great profiles for a rover V8, both auto and manual IMHO. Did you dial it in etc?

JC

Yep, I did. Although the profiles I did notice were somewhat smaller in the ramp than the std cam and the lobe apex is considerably sharper considering the minor increase in lift. Very flat up and very flat down.
Am going to change it back to a std cam shortly and see what happens from there.
It just doesnt idle with any stability unless you unplug the fuel reg hose and let it suck that little bit of unmetered air, disconnect the ECU temp sensor or hold it just above idle.
I have a sneaking suspicion "maybe" the valley end seals may be at fault> I re used the originals as I couldnt find the ones I bought until 2 days after it all went back together. Might try this first and see what happens.

Would it be worth advancing the cam????

Sorry to hijack the post Paul!!

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

I wonder if the head place gave you steel gasket heads as they are about 30thou thicker than composite heads.

I got some gaskets as part of a kit I ordered from Sydney. However when I spoke with Ray at CMW he told me to use the Elring composite gaskets.
Old gasket
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/363-1/RR-Engine-159.JPG

Two new types of gaskets... I used a pair of Elring's... the one on the left.
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/1763-1/RR-Engine-217.jpg



Did the heads have 10 bolt holes or an extra row on the outside edge?

I do not know whether the heads changed to 10 bolt at exactly the same time as the composite gaskets were introduced .

Both old and new heads are 10 bolt. I think I read somewhere that Rover V8 heads were 14 bolt up until 1996.
Old heads:
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/1882-1/RR-Engine-219.jpg
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/1886-1/RR-Engine-221.jpg


New heads:
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/1884-1/RR-Engine-220.jpg
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/1888-1/RR-Engine-222.jpg


The tappets were noticably quieter today when I got from work, but still noticable. I took another recording but it must be my camera - the tappet noise was still overpowering on playback. No point posting it as it is not a true representation.

Anyway, only a couple of days until it goes to CMW for a checkup.

Cheers, Paul.

[PaulP38a]

Sorry to hijack the post Paul!!

No worries Andrew... it's all relevant to what I'm researching anyway.
Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Quote: "The tappets were noticably quieter today when I got from work, but still noticable. "

Recommend you take it for an " Italian tuneup" :D run it in further over a couple of hundred Km at varying engine speeds...say between 2500 and 3500 rpm for 20 mins at a time with short bursts of a few mins each at 4-4500 once it is well warmed up (= over 50km from start). Just cruise in 2nd and 3rd -short trips to the office probably not real good :(.

Take an early mark from the office and go the long way home ... via Yass and Goulburn... :wasntme: :D At least you will knnow then when you take it into CMW if it's on the improve...

[PhilipA]

Paul, I was not talking about the gaskets, I was talking about the heads themselves.

The heads are a different casting to the original heads, and I guess the key measure would be the combustion chamber volume , which I guess you didn't check.(who would?) The composite head has a 28CC chamber whereas the tin head has a 34CC chamber, and the difference is made by skimming the head AFAIR 30thou.

Maybe they now do a multipurpose replacement head suitable for tin gaskets and composite with composite meant to be machined another 30thou.They couldn't do it the other way as once the material is off, it's off. Perhaps you could contact the head supplier and ask.

There is a place on heads to measure deck height but you may be able to do it in situ by measuring from an accessible bolt.

Perhaps Lovemyrangie can tell you the exact spot.

With regard to the tappets, I think you are being a little optimistic . In my experience the tappets will quieten within a couple of minutes of starting and stay the same from then on.

Regards Philip A

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

The 4.6 uses composite gaskets and heads are all 28cc 10 bolt.
You can fit 14 bolt heads to 10 bolt blocks in either 4 or 4.6 engines. You need to use the newer composite gaskets. Early heads have a slightly thicker face which you machine down to (memory banks working hard...) .893" from a nominal of .903" to recoup the CR. In your case Paul, you shouldn't really need to be worried about it. If the heads were faced at all it will decrease lifter clearance by a bee's dick but that should work in your favour rather than against you.

All the late heads use a composite gasket.

Have included the LR tech doc relating to it. This only refers to the change in supply of 14 bolt blocks to 10 bolt and requirements to refit existing 14 bolt heads
Cheers

Andrew

[PhilipA]

I am suggesting that the heads may be decked for a tin gasket, therefore the distance from cam to rockers is increased by 30thou or so, which is to me a valid explanation for his noisy tappets, as this would remove most if not all preload from the tappets, assuming they were originally between 20-50 thou.

If the tappets were mis placed on rebuild, it would surely be clearly visible if they were worn enough to remove all preload, say 15thou or more.

I know it is out there , but a long time has now passed since Land Rover used them in production and the new heads are clearly a different casting to the originals.
Maybe the source of the heads has now standardised on 10 bolt for both tin and composite.
Regards Philip A

[Lucus]

Paul,
there may be some useful info in this thread from when i built my 4.6 with 93 14 bolts, on page two there are some dimension that where required to reduce my c/chamber volume from 34 to 28cc.

(are we allowed to link to other forums....?:angel:)

Outer Limits 4x4 Board :: View topic - 4.6 ltr reliabiltiy (http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic102368.php&highlight=6ltr++reliability)

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

I am suggesting that the heads may be decked for a tin gasket, therefore the distance from cam to rockers is increased by 30thou or so, which is to me a valid explanation for his noisy tappets, as this would remove most if not all preload from the tappets, assuming they were originally between 20-50 thou.

If the tappets were mis placed on rebuild, it would surely be clearly visible if they were worn enough to remove all preload, say 15thou or more.

I know it is out there , but a long time has now passed since Land Rover used them in production and the new heads are clearly a different casting to the originals.
Maybe the source of the heads has now standardised on 10 bolt for both tin and composite.
Regards Philip A

Philip
tin gaskets are thinner than composite. The composite gaskets are designed to crush, forcing a wedge seal and do reduce in thickness somewhat hence the reason they use a Torque To Yield tensioning sequence to limit crush.
Facing the heads and then using a tin gasket would not increase the distance, it will decrease it, hence the reason you need to shim the rockers if more than the limit has been removed from the headface. This will tighten the lifter clearance and in technically bottom out the lifter tolerance leading to valves not seating correctly but very rarely does it happen.
You face the heads, you move your valves closer to deck height.
But, as the late engines after the "3.9" are composite and 10 bolt, Paul has no issue here.

Basically, there is no real need to shim the rocker pedestals as its the same cam with the same base circle.

Cheers

Andrew

[Lucus]

Andrew,
I think Phillips post reads differently to what he intended to say. My interpretation of his post is that if the heads are decked for tin gaskets, installation of the composites will increase deck high by 30odd thou and possibly cause the issues Paul is having.

We all know that tin gasket heads need a once over by aprox the thickness of the crushed composite (minus the thickness of the tin gasket of course) to restore the installed deck height to as it was with the original head deck height and tin gaskets

my 2c's

luke:D

[PaulP38a]

This is great info guys. Many thanks... I'm learning a lot about these engines that I wish I had know before attempting the "refresh"... not that I want to do it all again in the near future :)

I'll see what info I can get from the head supplier.

My engine is a '99 4.0. Is there a difference between heads on the 4.0 and 4.6, and might this be contributing to the tappet and power loss issue?

Cheers, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Thats my point. 14 bolt heads are thicker, not the other way round. You need to machine a 14 bolt head from a nominal face measurement of .903" down to .893" if, and only if you are putting early heads onto a late block to account for the extra thickness of the composite. This is suggested by LR as per the pdf in my previous post and was only due to the 14 bolt block production being dropped.
From then on, all used composite head gaskets and the 10 bolt heads were revamped accordingly.

I can see what he was trying to say, it just didn't quite level out. :)... and he did ask me if I knew.... :D

Paul, there is no difference in the heads, just the block, crank, pistons etc in 4.0 & 4.6.

[Lucus]

well as long as we are all on the same page......:bangin::wacko::p

[PaulP38a]

well as long as we are all on the same page......:bangin::wacko::p

obviously I'm a few chapters behind you blokes... but I'm a quick learner ;)

[PhilipA]

Gee, and I thought I was quite clear.
Wrong heads.
And 4.0 and 4.6 heads are exactly the same.
Regards Philip A

[PaulP38a]

Advice from CMW today is that the current setup is "sorta ok", and may well last another 100,000Km before the tappets/rockers/cam become a big problem.

The compressed thickness of the Elring head gaskets is roughly same as stock head gaskets so should not cause any problems. Supplier of the heads advised that the heads were skimmed by a "few thou" to ensure flatness.

The vacuum gauge indicated at higher revs (4-5k) that the cam lobes may be slightly worn, but not so much as to cause an immediate problem.

Practical advice from CMW is to replace tappets, rockers, shafts and camshaft at same time.

After further discussion, I have decided to replace rockers (inc shafts), pushrods, pedestals and lifters/tappets with genuine parts and see how it goes for a while. I don't want to do the camshaft yet... if I need to, it may be next year's project :D

Parts have been ordered at a pretty reasonable price. If I have to do it again in 6-12 months time, I can live with that.

Many thanks again to all for your advice and recommendations.

Cheers, Paul.

[Lucus]

Kinda pointless doing lifters and not cam, especially if you tests indicate a worn cam......

[Davo]

Wot he said. The rule with these engines is to always replace the cam and the lifters at the same time. If one is used and the other is new they won't be able to bed in together and then will wear out quickly. The other thing is that after you've replaced the cam and lifters, you should keep the engine at around 2000rpm for about 20-30 minutes immediately after starting up. This is to bed in the cam and lifters and after that they're done.

The cam lobes have an angle to them which is supposed to turn the lifter as it moves up and down. The idea is that the lifter bottom and the cam lobe wear in initially and then settle down to a long and happy relationship.

There's a lot of information out there covering this as there are so many of these types of engines around.

[PaulP38a]

Yeah, makes sense blokes. I'm not bothered about taking the top bits off the motor... it's fiddly, but not too difficult.

I suppose what is really putting me off doing the cam is that I will probably have to remove the front grille and radiator etc to get the cam out... true, or is there another/quicker way? (dropping the engine out is not an option in my garage).

At my pace, this turns a 1 day job (lifters, rockers and shafts only) in to a couple of weekends.

My logic of just doing the "easy" bits is that for a few hundred dollars of genuine LR parts and a day's effort, I may get improved performance/behaviour for a period of time to research more thoroughly the RPI or other cam options... knowing that I will have to replace the lifters again when I do.

Given that I'm not after a performance engine, just want it to play nice on road and off-road, what cam do you recommend with genuine LR lifters and rockers?

Cheers, Paul.

[LOVEMYRANGIE]

Paul, I would just replace with factory cam and look at a chip to start with. The std cam is actually quite good and will respond well to a chip change without really modifying anything else.
The cam options around are pretty limited without chipchange and you wont get what you expect from the cam without it, but you can always chip first, cam later and RPi chips allow for this, but I personally cant justify the price they want for the cam.

Alternatively, have a look at Piper Cams who actually make the RPi cams to their spec.

Piper Cams frames page (http://www.pipercams.co.uk/NewPiperWeb/redesign/PiperCamFrames.html)

Cheers

Andrew

[PaulP38a]

Paul, I would just replace with factory cam and look at a chip to start with. The std cam is actually quite good and will respond well to a chip change without really modifying anything else.
The cam options around are pretty limited without chipchange and you wont get what you expect from the cam without it, but you can always chip first, cam later and RPi chips allow for this, but I personally cant justify the price they want for the cam.

Alternatively, have a look at Piper Cams who actually make the RPi cams to their spec.

Piper Cams frames page (http://www.pipercams.co.uk/NewPiperWeb/redesign/PiperCamFrames.html)

Cheers

Andrew

Thanks Andrew - I was thinking that staying stock for the moment might be the way to go. I was quoted approx 600GBP for the full kit from RPI including standard Piper cam, plus shipping.

Locally, the full kit is around $1100 for genuine parts so there is a bit of a difference in favour of local and LR... might be the safest bet for now.

If I ever decide to go performance, I'd probably buy a 4.6 motor from Andy and have it rebuilt with RPI perfomance bits and a turbo by CMW :cool:

Cheers, Paul.

[Lucus]

release the front engine mounts, loosen the g/box mounts. Jack/hoist the engine clear of the rad/grill and remove the cam.

I'd rather do that, than throw a set of free lifters in and possibly accelerate cam/lifter wear further (and possibly wind up with the same noise you have now in a few weeks.....)

[Hoges]

Long Post...sorry!

Went through this about a year ago... there was at least one persistently noisy tappet... but which one :o... the engine (Bosch version) only had 115,000km on it... also do I /don't I replace the cam as well...

I ultimately took the worst of the lifters to an independent LR workshop here in Brisbane, ordered a complete set of lifters and rockers and asked them what they would normally do based on the "evidence".. new cam or not new cam?

Their reply was that it depended on the state of the lifters and the cam lobes ...and that on the basis of these particular lifters (2 had obvious rectangular pitting, while the others had barely noticeable wear rings) they'd just replace the rockers & lifters...no new cam.

They then gave me some specific instructions on putting it all back together and how to run it in...the first 20 mins being critical. and DON"T use super duper synthetic low viscosity oil... which reduces the intended rotation of lifters and push rods (it's tooo slippery)

Did all that as instructed and after 8,000 km the engine is nicely " quiet" ... I use a 3:1 mix of Magnatec10W40/15W40 (diesel formulation) ...

[PaulP38a]

Rocker arms, shafts, pushrods, hydraulic lifters and valley gasket changed over ok.
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2823-1/IMG_1641.JPG

This was about $750 worth of parts
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2647-1/IMG_1551.JPG

Engine started ok, but rattled and sounded awful for the first 5-10 seconds. Then I guess the oil caught up and it settled down. Within 30 seconds the rattling tappet noise had gone completely.

Maybe the intial noise was also the water pump cavitating a bit as it only took 2-3L initially. Eventually it used 7-8L of coolant so I think I "burped" it ok.

The video/audio clip below was taken a few minutes after starting for the first time, and is a bit tinny. In reality it sounds quite nice :)
YouTube - Range Rover V8 after rockers/lifters replaced

What I didn't replace:

The o-ring in the coolant rail that goes in to the side of the lower manifold... and now it's leaking :twisted:
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2893-2/IMG_1683.jpg

The rocker cover gaskets... leaking at LH rear
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2891-2/IMG_1681.jpg

Public holiday here in Canberra tomorrow, so I either order from Sydney or wait until Wednesday to see if CMW have them in stock.

Am very happy with the fan removal tool I bought from difflock.com a couple of weeks ago
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2704-1/IMG_1579.jpg

Last time I struggled for over an hour trying to remove the fan. With this tool it was off in a couple of minutes.
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2708-1/IMG_1581.jpg

Want to take it for a run, but am a bit paranoid about the coolant leak. I've nipped the bolt up a little but suspect the ring may be shot. Will reassess the situation in the morning.

Cheers, Paul.

[Lucus]

Paul,
Did you hand prime the lifters before you installed them? If not the initial rattle would be the time taken to pump them up. If it was only 5-10 seconds i would be pretty happy with that!

[PaulP38a]

Paul,
Did you hand prime the lifters before you installed them? If not the initial rattle would be the time taken to pump them up. If it was only 5-10 seconds i would be pretty happy with that!

Yeah I did, and let them soak in a container of oil overnight before fitting them. :D

[Lucus]

did yo u hand pump them?

Hows the increase in performance or you haven't had a chance to try it out yet due to the coolant leak?

[PaulP38a]

did yo u hand pump them?

Hows the increase in performance or you haven't had a chance to try it out yet due to the coolant leak?

Pumped them as best I could by immersing in oil and pumped each with a pushrod until the air bubbles were gone, then left to soak overnight.

Might take it for a short run today to see how power goes... but not too far... just noticed that a wiring loom is caught between the upper manifold and the coolant outlet pipe. don't want it to get too hot lest something starts to melt.

[Hoges]

to paraphrase Henry Root:eek: " by jove old chap, well done!"

[PaulP38a]

went for a short run... power feels good.

Reversing back up the driveway, got a puff of smoke from under the bonnet. Figured it would be from the oil leak above the LH exhaust manifold (it was). Got out to check anyway and was greeted by a stream of red coolant...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Rangie is not going anywhere now until I replace the o-ring and rocker cover gaskets.

[willem]

went for a short run... power feels good.

Reversing back up the driveway, got a puff of smoke from under the bonnet. Figured it would be from the oil leak above the LH exhaust manifold (it was). Got out to check anyway and was greeted by a stream of red coolant...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Rangie is not going anywhere now until I replace the o-ring and rocker cover gaskets.

Oh dear! :(:(:(

But you've beaten everything else so you'll beat this too!

Willem

[Hoges]

Re. replacing the rocker cover gaskets: a wise man (a.k.a Ron Beckett /P38arover :wasntme::D) advised the use of Loctite 518 .. smear lightly on both sides of gasket before you refit the covers... I took the advice when I did mine and the result is terrific...not a hint of a leak :p

[Hoges]

went for a short run... power feels good.

Reversing back up the driveway, got a puff of smoke from under the bonnet. Figured it would be from the oil leak above the LH exhaust manifold (it was). Got out to check anyway and was greeted by a stream of red coolant...
http://paulp38a.com/gallery/d/2896-1/IMG_1687.jpg

Rangie is not going anywhere now until I replace the o-ring and rocker cover gaskets.

are you sure it was not a Hunter Valley " big red" you'd forgotten about and left under the bonnet while putting the finishing touches? :twisted:

[PaulP38a]

are you sure it was not a Hunter Valley " big red" you'd forgotten about and left under the bonnet while putting the finishing touches? :twisted:
:twobeers:

Not much chance of that... I only had a Corona while doing it the evening before. The Hunter Valley stuff didn't come out until I downed tools ;)

Loctite 518 eh? might try that next time. I used a light coat of Permatex high temp goo last time and this time.

Last time it worked a charm. This time I think the gasket was a bit worn anyway and the goo didn't help as much as I'd have liked.

Am putting the list together now to send off to CMW:
Rocker cover gaskets
Set of rocker cover bolts
O-ring for coolant rail to RH lower inlet manifold
Upper inlet manifold gasket

Have I missed anything? I think that is all I am going to be touching this coming weekend.

Then there's the other high-priority list:
Replace bonnet cables
Install brake modulator repair kit
Fit smoked tail and side lights :cool:
Fit coolant rail temp sensor (under the dash again!)
Fix SRS fault message (not again!)

... and the want-to-do list... too long for here ;)

BTW: it's a Barossa Valley red this evening :D

Cheers, Paul.

[PaulP38a]

Hopefully all is done for now... :)

coolant rail o-ring replaced
rocker cover gaskets and bolts replaced
upper to lower inlet manifold gasket replaced
coolant system "burped" and operating in-range

Have driven the car quite a lot today in 30DegC Canberra weather - no probs and power feels good. Even cleared the "Gearbox fault" and "SRS fault" meassages... low battery I think.

Hopefully this is the last of this thread :D

Cheers, Paul.

[mike 90 RR]

Well done Paul ... Good to see you stuck to it and didn't loose the faith

Mike
:)

[PaulP38a]

Well done Paul ... Good to see you stuck to it and didn't loose the faith

Mike
:)

Thanks Mike - it's been "character building", especially when the engine temp crept up towards the red on the second "burp" last night... and then I got a lovely splash of red coolant all over the garage floor when the air lock cleared :eek:

I noticed today while cruising at 100Kph that my revs were at approx 2200. I think this is good, although I was running on 33"s (100Kph on GPS, ~85Kph on speedo). I was used to the revs being at about 2800 at 110Kph.

Perhaps the new tappets are making a difference? I'll try it again tomorrow at higher speeds.

Cheers, Paul.

[Hoges]

Quote: ...and then I got a lovely splash of red coolant all over the garage floor when the air lock cleared

When refilling radiator, "a" trick is to use your EAS bypass system as follows: pump front susp to max height, set rears at "access".
( This ensures all air is expelled to "highest point" and reduces airpockets deep in engine)

Make sure cap is removed from expansion tank.
Remove top hose from radiator then decant (:eek::p) the proper red stuff (coolant, that is!) into the hose until you see the level begin to rise in the expansion tank.
Refit top hose to radiator outlet and start the engine, letting it warm up at a fast idle.
Watch for the bypass hose from top of radiator to expansion tank begin to dribble freely into exp. tank.
Wait for bubbling to subside.
Top up expansion tank only to COLD level, replace cap and switch off engine.
Let engine cool...it will then draw required amount of coolant into system from exp. tank. Level drops.
Deflate front susp to "access" so that RR is level.
Check coolant level in exp tank, top up to COLD ...DON'T overfill.

The next time the engine reaches operating temp, any excess air will be expelled through overflow with minimal loss (hopefully) of coolant. check when cool again and top us if necessary. Job done.:D

[Remy]

Good tip Hoges i presume for those without the bypass parking on a hill (nose up) would do a similar thing??

[Hoges]

Yep, as long as there's a reasonable F/R slope... say 100-150mm min diff F/R works well... as with most things in life you need "the right slant" on things:Rolling::wasntme:

[PaulP38a]

by the way Hoges... i plagarised your post here RangeRovers.net • View topic - best way to get rid of air locks?? (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34999&p=271252#p271051)
with acknowledgements of course

[PaulP38a]

The Tractor went for it's first decent run today... a 500Km+ round trip from Queanbeyan to Western Sydney and back, with a few hours break in-between eating, drinking and checking out some other Land Rovers.

No complaints with the refreshed engine - power was smooth and it maintained itself well at the posted legal speed limit. No signs of temperature problems and no noticable consumption of coolant.

Fuel consumption and speed figures are a bit rubbery due to the 4.1 gears and 33" tyres:
Indicated avg 16L/100Km or 14.5L/100Km corrected for 10% speedo error.
GPS 80Km/h @ 2000rpm (indicated 70-75Km/h)
GPS 110Km/h @ 2500rpm (indicated 95-100Km/h)
GPS 130Km/h @ 3000rpm (indicated 110-115Km/h... interpolated of course)

Now to do something about that vibrating prop-shaft and wandering in the steering :o

Cheers, Paul.