Let's talk about Defender rear coil options

[dmdigital]

I need to upgrade the rear coils on the Puma. This is because the upper (progressive) coils sag under load - e.g. when towing. Unladen the Defender is fine.

As I understand it the rear coils are a progressive 270-420 lbs/in (RKB101111).

I've decided not to go for polyairs or helper springs as I don't always have the weight in the back of the 110 and would like to keep a reasonable ride. Whilst the Polyairs would assist I still need to replace the exisiting coils as the upper 3 coils (lower rated) are the issue. I also don't want to lift the back with the suspension to higher than standard.

As I see it my options are to go for a heavier progressive or a straight liner replacement.

The HD LR springs (NRC6904/NRC6389) are a 330 lbs/in linear coil.
The OME 755's are also a linear (I believe) but only 270'ish lbs/in.
LRA can also supply a 270 lbs/in linear and a 320 lbs/in linear coil.

If the weekend's not to hot I was going to swap the King Springs KLRS-05's from the back of the Tdi to the Puma and see how they feel. These are a heavy coil and I suspect over 330 lbs/in. I can't find any publish rates for these springs.

The front end already has HD springs. I'm also replacing the LR shocks with something solid - and expensive:( - Koni Raids. So this will also assist the rear end as they should be good under hot conditions. They have a 70mm bore and I suspect will be unlikely to fade under normal track driving and make for a good ride on corrugations.

So I guess I have a few questions:
* If I replace the present 270-420 with a linear 270 I suspect this will be to weak for what I need. Is this correct?
* Assuming I need a heavier rate spring then is the 330 lbs/in LR going to be too harsh when the Puma is unloaded?
* Are there any options I should also consider?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My car is booked in at the end of the month with MR to have polyairs fitted for exactly this reason (yes I know I could do it myself but time...time). I am going to fit my standard 110 springs in the hope that even with a couple of psi in the polyairs I will get a better ride around town - yet be able to pump them for when we are heavily laden.

I'm afraid I don't have the specs on the springs other than they aren't progressive and are about 10+% softer than standard.

I'll carry the defender standard springs on trips in case of breakages or polyair failures.

[dmdigital]

10% softer than which end of standard:confused: Since the standards are a progressive coil that's a little ambiguous I think as the upper part of the coil is significantly softer.

I'm trying to do all this without buying the wrong rate springs and then having to exchange them for others and pay lots and lots of freight.

[Blknight.aus]

I'd suggest you try the standard rear springs from the td5110. or the heavy duty items that were an option.

the standards should keep you out of trouble if you're not towing or loaded all that often and the HD's if your loaded or towing more often than not.

[weeds]

i was happy with my poly airs with standard springs....well till i was ripped one

around town no body roll (although you would have a sway bar fitted yes) fully loaded on my simpson trip along with plenty of other trips they worked a treat

i suspect i holed one running no air while off roading around a mates property

[weeds]

My car is booked in at the end of the month with MR to have polyairs fitted for exactly this reason (yes I know I could do it myself but time...time). I am going to fit my standard 110 springs in the hope that even with a couple of psi in the polyairs I will get a better ride around town - yet be able to pump them for when we are heavily laden.

I'll carry the defender standard springs on trips in case of breakages or polyair failures.

would you like a spare....used poly air as i think i will import the other major brand of airbag from the USA

[justinc]

Derek, what happened to the 130 idea? I am still contemplating this for mine for touring/ towing, and twin DeCarbons too.

JC

[JohnR]

I changed both my front and rear to a non progressive HD King Spring with a claimed lift of 50mm in reality from original I got around the 28mm lift from these. (But I do have a tonne of accessories :))

Yes they are a little harsher than the original progressive springs but when loaded and towing they sit real nice. I think you are asking a lot to get a spring that is progressive but still an awsome towing and fully loaded spring.

For my two cents, when loaded and towing I drive rather sedately but obviously want minimal body role HD springs are good for this. But when I am not loaded or towing I usually drive like a mad man :twisted: and therefore like the rather hard ride the springs give. Good shockies (which are my next up grade!) can make a firm ride very driveable without shudder or wheel chatter.

Give the tech line a call from King Springs I found them very helpfull.

Cheers,

[dmdigital]

I'd suggest you try the standard rear springs from the td5110. or the heavy duty items that were an option.

the standards should keep you out of trouble if you're not towing or loaded all that often and the HD's if your loaded or towing more often than not.
The standard rear springs that are in the Puma are the same as for the Td5 110's. The current ones have just worn out from my travels.

HD's are also the same as for the Td5, Tdi etc


Derek, what happened to the 130 idea? I am still contemplating this for mine for touring/ towing, and twin DeCarbons too.

JC
From what I can learn I think it will give too harsher ride. I'm still keeping the Polyair or 130 helpers as a last option at this point. I'd rather go a single coil if I can. I think one of the issues I have is the extortionate price (even in the UK) for the mounts for the helpers.


I changed both my front and rear to a non progressive HD King Spring with a claimed lift of 50mm in reality from original I got around the 28mm lift from these. (But I do have a tonne of accessories :))...

Give the tech line a call from King Springs I found them very helpfull.
I was thinking of calling Kings to find out the rates of the KLRS-05's. Your's are probably the KRRS-05's. Both are a linear coil. I find the ride very harsh in the Tdi and have not been overly happy with the Kings. I suspect they are over 320 lbs/in in which case it will give me an idea of what the worst case is. So that's why I'm thinking I'll swap them over to the Puma for a day.

[Blknight.aus]

The standard rear springs that are in the Puma are the same as for the Td5 110's. The current ones have just worn out from my travels.

HD's are also the same as for the Td5, Tdi etc



how the snot did you manage that, Im still on my original springs and shocks and Im near as damnit to normal ride height after 170ish K Km....

mind you I started on HD springs.

[dmdigital]

how the snot did you manage that, Im still on my original springs and shocks and Im near as damnit to normal ride height after 170ish K Km....

mind you I started on HD springs.
35,000 km towing a Kimberley Kamper I suspect and a couple of thousand km's of that was corrugated track. Im not disappointed, I actually didn't expect the original shocks and rear coils to last the entire trip and they did. SO can't complain about that.

When I haven't got more than 100kgs in the back or the trailer's not attached, they are fine. As soon as you load the back up though you drop the rear end - e.g. if I hang off the rear ladder. It's only the top portion of the spring that is the problem. If they were straight linears I suspect it would be OK, but I also suspect 270 lbs/in linears would drop quickly. I'm leaning towards the linear HD's at 320 or 330 lbs/in. Won't be putting in progressives.

As for the shocks they are also worn, not leaking or anything, just fade VERY quickly now. Went 20 km out of town the other weekend and they were bouncy by then end of that.

[roverrescue]

Derek,
Have you driven a coiler with polyairs in the rear?
Certainly dont write them off. For your situation they seem a perfect tool. Leave them at bugger all psi and your ride will be as it is now ("Unladen the defender is fine")
And then when you load up put in the 30psi and away you go.
Id throw polys into the current springs and drive them for a bit to see how you go.

No metal only spring will give the variablity of ride height / spring rate that you can get out of compressed air!!!

Steve

[dmdigital]

Well a call to King Springs today saved me a lot of work on the weekend. No points swapping the coils over from the Tdi and see how they go in the Puma. I now know why the Tdi rides so harsh - 470 lbs/in linear rear coils:eek:

I'm now thinking the 330 lbs/in HD springs are the go and then if I do need any more for towing I'll think about the polyairs.

[TimNZ]

Hi Derek, what about converting completly to airbags? I'm looking at changing out the springs in my 110 for airbags as I find it too harsh when empty, but I don't want to fit softer springs as it will suffer when I load it up for trips out of town.

Cheers,

Tim

[dmdigital]

Thought about it Tim but it's an expensive option and I don't know of anyone who's done this. I'm also not sure how well the airbags go over lots and lots of dirt road travel. I suspect the bags themselves are fine but on a Defender the rear suspension is terribly exposed to the elements - dirt, rocks, etc - and I think this may be potentially harmful. I wouldn't want one failing. This is also a concern for me with the Polyairs too.

[TimNZ]

Apart from the cost, (I was quoted $1375), the wear thing is a bit of a concern, but if they survive on the back of trucks they can't be too bad. Also if you puncture one you can repair them with a rope type tyre repair kit, (so long as the hole isn't huge).

[dmdigital]

Just remember most of the trucks are also on sealed roads too. So how resilient would the airbags be on dirt and gravel for hundreds of kilometres at a time.

[Blknight.aus]

not bad, thats what the loggers run these days and Ive got countless thousands of kilometers up in R series macks on what you might call a road if you were being generous.

[dmdigital]

Loggers also run CTI... now that would be nice:)

Truck bags are lot heavier duty than the 4WD variant though and also potentially less exposed, but that depends on the vehicle.

[malleefowl]

Hi Derek ,
I have been quite happy with the 98 fender since fitting poly airs.In general handling is better on dirt and corrugations and makes all the difference with the van behind.just adjust air to suit conditions.Easy to fit a replacement if nesessary,
Cheers,
Mary

[abaddonxi]

Why not 130 helper springs? I thought they don't affect the ride unless heavily laden.

[dmdigital]

The 130 helpers will fit in the existing springs but by the time I buy all the brackets and the springs its also an expensive option. More importantly as the progressive coils have aged I would need to replace these anyway. Also I believe the helpers should go inside the HD coils, but I may be wrong as I know that they fit both.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The 130 helpers will fit in the existing springs but by the time I buy all the brackets and the springs its also an expensive option. More importantly as the progressive coils have aged I would need to replace these anyway. Also I believe the helpers should go inside the HD coils, but I may be wrong as I know that they fit both.

I must say it is interesting that your coils have aged. Ours haven't aged notably, and is has done its share of dirt driving. It makes me wonder if something has changed in the specifications of them.

[dmdigital]

The rear coils in the Puma 110 4 door wagons are the same as in the equivalent Td5 wagon's. The front coils in the Puma are the same as the left side coil in previous Defenders. Prior to the Puma the front's were handed.

[roverrescue]

out of interest derek,
i had those same kings in my old disco for two cape trips... sure it held the rear end up but also im sre "helped" the 3 rear body mounts cracking out and one chassis mount, as in chassis cracked... i changed over to 300lb.in with polyairs and had the same lift under load but light years ahead in ride and handling.

also maybe a possibility for you... after this next cape trip next week Im pretty keen to change away from the 130 helpers and run either polys or firestone airsprings... id be happy to send the 130 bracketry and helper springs your way...for a steal!!!

S

[Tusker]

Derek,
Have you driven a coiler with polyairs in the rear?
Certainly dont write them off. For your situation they seem a perfect tool. Leave them at bugger all psi and your ride will be as it is now ("Unladen the defender is fine")
And then when you load up put in the 30psi and away you go.
Id throw polys into the current springs and drive them for a bit to see how you go.

No metal only spring will give the variablity of ride height / spring rate that you can get out of compressed air!!!

Steve

x 2 Almost.

I'd agree - reconsider these. They do the intended function extremely well. The mimimum is 5psi, don't run 0 as they will pinch & tear, and only put in what you need. 30 psi is the recommended maximum I think. I run 18 psi when loaded.

Regards
Max P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Of course, I can give you a report on Saturday :) When we go to Fraser we will be loaded (medium) so I should get some feel for how well or otherwise they work then.

[dmdigital]

Well lots of discussing with suppliers later I'm no closer. King Springs and Dobinsons are both 470 lbs/in if you want standard ride height. They do different weights in the 2" lift longer springs - why? You'd think the standard height springs would be at least similar to the standard HD springs from LR.

Knowing full well that I'm going to have to do something I think I'll first of replace the shocks and go from there. I think the best option is to keep the helpers/polyairs as a reserve option and simply put HD linear coils in. This will stiffen up the backend but shouldn't be too harsh and then I can always add the extra hardware as and if required.


I think I must be the only person around who doesn't want to lift his Defender:confused:

Captain_Rightfoot: Trip report is always welcome;)

[Benny_IIA]

Well lots of discussing with suppliers later I'm no closer. King Springs and Dobinsons are both 470 lbs/in if you want standard ride height. They do different weights in the 2" lift longer springs - why? You'd think the standard height springs would be at least similar to the standard HD springs from LR.

Knowing full well that I'm going to have to do something I think I'll first of replace the shocks and go from there. I think the best option is to keep the helpers/polyairs as a reserve option and simply put HD linear coils in. This will stiffen up the backend but shouldn't be too harsh and then I can always add the extra hardware as and if required.


I think I must be the only person around who doesn't want to lift his Defender:confused:

Captain_Rightfoot: Trip report is always welcome;)

why not get custom springs for the rear from some where like dobinson.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ok, we've got the polyairs in. I put the standard defender 110 coils in that were lighter than the ones we took out (the standard progressive rate td5 extreme coils).

Well... with 10 psi in them the car is sitting at the same or higher hight.

But please... can someone tell me why our car now rides like a rangie? It's transformed?? It's **really** made a huge difference. :D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No takers on why my car has been transformed into a limosine with an incredibly compliant ride yet sitting as high or higher than ever? :D

I think it might be due to ditching the standard progressive rate coils and going with the lighter non-progressive 110 coils. It will be interesting to see how it rides when loaded. We're off to Fraser next week so I should get an idea of that and how the articulation goes next week.

[chuck]

Derek,

Browns Springs in Thomastown Victoria will build the springs you want all you need to tell them is the vehicle type, length & poundage.

They are very reasonably priced & I know a few guys on this site as well as
D2au that have used them. They seem to have a good reputation.

If you go to the Les Richmond site they have some interesting information on springs such as lengths, poundage etc.

If you wanted me to pick the springs up & drop them off at a freight yard I live not far from them.

Regards

Chuck

[dmdigital]

No takers on why my car has been transformed into a limosine with an incredibly compliant ride yet sitting as high or higher than ever? :D

I think it might be due to ditching the standard progressive rate coils and going with the lighter non-progressive 110 coils. It will be interesting to see how it rides when loaded. We're off to Fraser next week so I should get an idea of that and how the articulation goes next week.

I think you've swayed me fully towards the standard HD LR coils. The are a 330lb/in linear. I'll need to talk with LR Automotive again though as I think they made a slightly lower rate and also did a 270 linear (to light). I think this combination with the heavy dampers will be sufficient for most of what I want. After that point I'll look at the Polyairs.


Browns Springs in Thomastown Victoria will build the springs you want all you need to tell them is the vehicle type, length & poundage.

They are very reasonably priced & I know a few guys on this site as well as
D2au that have used them. They seem to have a good reputation.

If you go to the Les Richmond site they have some interesting information on springs such as lengths, poundage etc.

If you wanted me to pick the springs up & drop them off at a freight yard I live not far from them.
Thanks Chuck, I've already talked to Les Richmond and will be again.

[Bush65]

Derek,
Have you driven a coiler with polyairs in the rear?
Certainly dont write them off. For your situation they seem a perfect tool. Leave them at bugger all psi and your ride will be as it is now ("Unladen the defender is fine")
And then when you load up put in the 30psi and away you go.
Id throw polys into the current springs and drive them for a bit to see how you go.

No metal only spring will give the variablity of ride height / spring rate that you can get out of compressed air!!!

Steve
The correct procedure for inflating air bags like Polyair or the Firestone equivalent, is to raise the pressure while the springs are at the normal ride height. Do this before the extra load is added, not after the springs are compressed.


Thought about it Tim but it's an expensive option and I don't know of anyone who's done this. I'm also not sure how well the airbags go over lots and lots of dirt road travel. I suspect the bags themselves are fine but on a Defender the rear suspension is terribly exposed to the elements - dirt, rocks, etc - and I think this may be potentially harmful. I wouldn't want one failing. This is also a concern for me with the Polyairs too.
Air springs are more expensive, but not as much so if you buy from Trucksprings in the USA.

I have Firestone air springs (not talking about air bags like Polyairs) front and back. IMHO they are better than coil springs.

There is a thread in the projects and tutorials forum (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/74190-defender-110-ute.html) with a lot of info and a link to air springs suitable for the rear of a Defender at Trucksprings (http://www.truckspring.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=W01-358-5426).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2010/10/600.jpg

[dmdigital]

Just when you think it's safe to stop reading a thread... along comes a whole lot more information:eek:

Thanks John, I'll check out the links you've provided:D

[isuzurover]

I thought I would resurrect this thread rather than start a new one.

What (linear) rate rear springs would you (or did you) use on a 110 for a trip like the Canning? JamesJ on here is trying to decide what to buy.

AT the moment his county has ~170lb/in (or whatever the standard county rears are) - which are a bit soft now the load leveller has been removed (ok unladen though).

Many suppliers have a 320-330 lb/in spring - but will this be sufficient?

King have a 520lb/in spring! (and 470 from reading here) - but is that overkill???

What rate are the outer coils on a 130? I recall they are the same diameter?

(these sort of issues are what made me switch to air springs... I am sure I will enjoy the benefits of an (almost) infinitely variable spring rate and longer travel...)

[dmdigital]

Avoid the Kings as they are way to heavy unless really really loaded up. The LR HD's are the 130 outer coils and rated at 320 lb/in. The standard coils on the Defender are a progressive 270/420 lb/in coil.

[sclarke]

Im in the process of playing coils as mine has huge after market ones in the rear...... unless its loaded up to the hilt its horrible...
So ive got some Std 110 red/greens 330lbs and some 130 outer progressive brown purples 270 420....

Current ones ill measure free height and wire diam.... they are big...

Just played with the front ones as i had 110 HD blue/reds 225lbs in it.... just ditched them as i tried a culvert today and it had no flex and i had to use the locker to get where stock hiluxs go.....

Fronts are now RR rears, Pink purple progressive. 180lbs 16.5" free height.
I also cut the front towers 2" to get more droop..... will try it one night this week..... if i knock off early enough...

Bumpstop clearance on the HD110 fronts was 95mm
Now 85mm with the RR rears

Aiming for 2" bumpstop clearance on compressed wheel and full droop on unloaded wheel...

Rears i'll let you know how i go...

Reason im changing it so much is my RR pig flexed awsome and went anywhere.... want the county the same or better...

Clarkie