Using E10 Ethanol Unleaded in my P38

[lorkers]

Hi,

New to Australia, I've been a bit wary about putting in this new E10 Ethanol fuel in my 1999 4.6 HSE. Is there any advice about it?

All I can find on the forum is this about Series 1s...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/65084-caution-e10-fuel.html

However for the past couple of weeks I've been trying it to save on cash, particularly since the Sydney fuel cycle has moved to a Thursday (what fresh madness is this...?!) Cheapest fuel now on Thursdays (http://www.smh.com.au/national/cheapest-fuel-now-on-thursdays-20091208-kfvz.html)

And lo and behold... my poor Rangie is running a bit "rough", particularly on start up in the mornings, with more engine noise & a noticable knock on the engine... and I'm only getting 26l/100km on the urban cycle...

Now... is this because I've changed the fuel, or shall I hunt for another reason?

And yes, I'm changing back to the proper stuff for a couple of weeks, just to see if it makes a difference...

[Scouse]

Personally, I stick to the proper stuff.

The fuel cycle still has Wednesday as the cheap day out my way. Took 280 litres last night at 106.9 cpl :). That should see me out for a couple of weeks :(.

[Hoges]

Couple of points: ethanol molecules do not pack near as much combustion energy as their "equivalent" in hydrocarbons. so engines running on ethanol mixes need to burn more fuel to obtain the same energy output.... further, it does not burn as smoothly as does a more homogenous mix of hydrocarbons.
Ethanol is not recommended for Rangies of the 90's because it can lead to the formation of deposits on the fuel gauge sender which change the resistance readings and ultimately you may find the gauge readfing only 50% when the tank is indeed full... there's a LR TSB on this... usual fix is to fit a new sender ($$$). Others (self included) who have suffered from dodgy fuel have reported success by dosing the tank with EFI cleaner and doing a long run...(500km +)

I have been driving Bris<->Toowoomba fairly regularly over the past year or so and did some "experiments". :eek:

The 4.6 engine has a relatively low 8.37:1 compression. When I fill up with 98 Octane /same servo/same pump the return 270 km journey averaged out at 12.2 litres/100km...according to pumped volume and GPS distance :angel: for 5 trips

Ran the tank down twice -required 85L fill - using the 91 octane unleaded from same bowser (of course it was a different hose :p)
I then undertook several more trips on 91 octane: result was 13.5 l/100km
for all cases, the GVM was about the same and travel time was "off-peak" and elapsed time each way was 1 hr 35 mins +/- 5 mins.

what I did notice was that on cruise control at 100kmh approach speed on certain grades, the AT held 4th gear on 98 octane... whereas on 91 octane it kicked down and roared away at 3000+ rpm to maintain the 100kmh!

With a price differential of up to 14 cents/L it's still a shade under $3 more expensive to use the 98 octane irrespective of the improved fuel economy... but the engine does run more smoothly esp. under load.

[lorkers]

my poor Rangie is running a bit "rough"

Curses.

The other half has taken the Rangie to get her hair done, and has just called me to say that there was a loud bang, and it now sounds like farm machinery. On the phone it sounds like, well, not sure but a diesel on steroids is the best answer. Doesn't really sound like an exhaust problem, more like on the head, but I'm trying to diagnose it over the phone...

So, may not get a chance to try it on proper fuel... Are there any good garages that know P38s in the Castle Hill direction?

[Grumbles]

That sounds expensive - ouch!! Good luck.

[p38arover]

Are there any good garages that know P38s in the Castle Hill direction?

Davis Performance Landys
Amaroo Park Complex
233 Annangrove Rd
Annangrove, NSW 2156
(02) 9679-1978

or

Peter Davis (different bloke),
Roving Mechanical Services (mobile mechanic)
0410 503 500

[PaulP38a]

The 4.6 engine has a relatively low 8.37:1 compression. When I fill up with 98 Octane /same servo/same pump the return 270 km journey averaged out at 12.2 litres/100km...according to pumped volume and GPS distance :angel: for 5 trips

Hmm, filled up my '99 4.0 with 98 octane before doing an approx 600Km round trip to Sydney today. Averaged about 15L/100Km with 4 adults and average speed of 110-115Kph (or thereabouts), corrected for 33" tyres and 4.1 diff ratios. Still seems a bit high to me.

Maybe some injector cleaner would help?... or perhaps the top of the motor isn't quite run-in yet?... I'm pretty sure that playing with Sport mode and manual shifting in the hills and bends out the back of Douglas Park would not have had much to do with it ;)

The shame of it all - I even let a Hyundai Excel overtake me on the motorway coming home :o

Lorkers - hope your Rangie is ok... there is also a bloke named Sam who is a mate of Andrew E on this forum. He is over Hurstville way, but I think he has a mobile mechanic business and knows his way around P38A's.


Cheers, Paul.

[p38arover]

there is also a bloke named Sam who is a mate of Andrew E on this forum. He is over Hurstville way, but I think he has a mobile mechanic business and knows his way around P38A's.

Sam
Rangeland Automotive
Mobile Motor Mechanic
Bexley Sth
Mob: 0410 664 194

[lorkers]

That sounds expensive - ouch!! Good luck.

Thanks for your support guys... and the contacts for garages that I'll need shortly... not today thankfully, as I've at least got it back on the road, although it's not exactly puring... more sort of clunking.

Fault was obvious when I got there... the big hose with cooling water going into the top of the engine had come off (or, from the look of the dent in the bonnet, exploded off) and the jubilee clip & dangly hose was clattering against the fan. Now if the other half had mentioned the poor Rangie was spewing coolant all over the car park (or, should I say, leaking & marking its teritory), I'd have told her to switch it off RIGHT NOW.

Once things had cooled down I got the hose back on, and filled back up with water... lots of water, the rad was drained. Goodness knows what damage driving it along with no coolant has caused, but its sounding sickly, and the alternator (which had gallons of water sloshing over it) is making a nasty squeel too.

Original fault seems to come from the coolant system, which even now has hoses that are rock hard, so I guess pressure related, and a blockage?

Sigh... going to take it to bits over Christmas... That'll be fun...

[redandy3575]

Couple of points: ethanol molecules do not pack near as much combustion energy as their "equivalent" in hydrocarbons. so engines running on ethanol mixes need to burn more fuel to obtain the same energy output.... further, it does not burn as smoothly as does a more homogenous mix of hydrocarbons.
Ethanol is not recommended for Rangies of the 90's because it can lead to the formation of deposits on the fuel gauge sender which change the resistance readings and ultimately you may find the gauge readfing only 50% when the tank is indeed full... there's a LR TSB on this... usual fix is to fit a new sender ($$$). Others (self included) who have suffered from dodgy fuel have reported success by dosing the tank with EFI cleaner and doing a long run...(500km +)

I have been driving Bris<->Toowoomba fairly regularly over the past year or so and did some "experiments". :eek:

The 4.6 engine has a relatively low 8.37:1 compression. When I fill up with 98 Octane /same servo/same pump the return 270 km journey averaged out at 12.2 litres/100km...according to pumped volume and GPS distance :angel: for 5 trips

Ran the tank down twice -required 85L fill - using the 91 octane unleaded from same bowser (of course it was a different hose :p)
I then undertook several more trips on 91 octane: result was 13.5 l/100km
for all cases, the GVM was about the same and travel time was "off-peak" and elapsed time each way was 1 hr 35 mins +/- 5 mins.

what I did notice was that on cruise control at 100kmh approach speed on certain grades, the AT held 4th gear on 98 octane... whereas on 91 octane it kicked down and roared away at 3000+ rpm to maintain the 100kmh!

With a price differential of up to 14 cents/L it's still a shade under $3 more expensive to use the 98 octane irrespective of the improved fuel economy... but the engine does run more smoothly esp. under load.

Just wondering whether hte p38s have variable ECU's in them. Cause the recommendation is to run on 91RON fuel as we have the low compression engine in oz. Some i'm suprised to hear that you got more performance let alone better economy out of it. Have you had your Rangie chiped or performance enhanced??

[Gullible]

E10 has some other interesting properties.

Ethanol is a cleaner so it will clean the crud off your tank and fuel lines - OK if your doing a long run. Not so great in the stop start stuff as the crud is in the fuel and can just get moved up the system to the injectors.

The other property is its ability to absorb water (can be in your tank in the form of condensation) again not a problem if you do long trips, but....

If you fill up your tank and then take a while to empty changing temperatures can course phase seperation and you have water in your fuel lines.

[sclarke]

Interesting. If I run my new holden sidi engine on E10 it has more hp than STD unleaded and If I run on 98. Baby it's nice. So funny how I can get more HP and more distance to the tank on E10

[PhilipA]

E10 is approx 94octane , regular is 91.
On a Holden the ignition will advance thus better economy/power.
Regards Philip A

[Hoges]

Just wondering whether hte p38s have variable ECU's in them. Cause the recommendation is to run on 91RON fuel as we have the low compression engine in oz. Some i'm suprised to hear that you got more performance let alone better economy out of it. Have you had your Rangie chiped or performance enhanced??

Nup, nothing fishy and certainly no chips :p just plain bog standard motor.

EDIT: I was using 98Octane because that's the only premium available from the particular Shell servo in Toowoomba (Margaret St). I haven't done a similar test with Caltex Vortex 95 Octane....yet!!

[Gippslander]

I recently filled my P38 with ethanol by mistake coming back from the mountains, after getting home nothing seemed different but the next day i took it to Melbourne and was getting 11.3l/100km and it felt great better power and smoother it wasn't lagging between 75=90kms like it normally did. Unfortunately it is now getting the brakes attended too it has the step in the action and no brake sensation.:mad:

[p38arover]

As my P38A runs mainly on LPG, I don't use a lot of petrol. My car has a 155 litre long range petrol tank that takes months to use up so I don't want that filled with E10.

What I need is a fuel that isn't going to go into phase separation so I fill with PULP. The extra cost isn't an issue as I use so little anyway.

Because of this when I had my engine worked, I had HC pistons fitted to take advantage of the higher octane rating of PULP and LPG. The car has also been rechipped as well.

[Hoges]

Interesting. If I run my new holden sidi engine on E10 it has more hp than STD unleaded and If I run on 98. Baby it's nice. So funny how I can get more HP and more distance to the tank on E10

Holden spent millions developing the SIDI engine and totally reconfigured their manufacturing set up as a result. The techology in the SIDI is light years from our genetically modified flat tappet push rod Buick :D.

Certainly ethanol has high Octane rating...meaning that pre-detonation caused by a given degree of ignition advancement is reduced compared to fuel of lesser octane rating. However, the calorific or energy value of ethanol (C2H5OH) compared to an equivalent unit of hydrocarbons with longer carbon chains is considerably less. Ahhh! the endless quest for greater efficiency and power :angel:

[redandy3575]

I tell what i have noticed.... a considerable reduction in economy around 8% or so. And i'm wondering if this may be the reason for why the engine is a little hard to start when parked on a slope either facing upwards or downwards?? Once running,, i need to give it a few revs to stop it from stalling, has anyone else had this??:(

[rofosixone]

i tryed e10 on my 96 4L , felt weird and had no go and was scared to floor it as motor seemed to act up funny when takeing off at the lights ,hard to explain / couldnt wait to get rid of it .
back useing v power high octane again , now fantastic hot rod performance again - choice up to you .
footnote
my p38a factory 4L V8 handbook says 95 unleaded is factory rec fuel for this motor / another thought if helps .

[BusinessConnected]

I think the general experience with these fuels are

High Compression Motor (Commodore, Certain P38's ete)
98 RON is Best...

Lower Compression Motor (Most P38's ete)
95 RON or Even E10 is better... no benefits from 98 RON

[Hoges]

P38 handbook specifically warns against using Ethanol blends. Ethanol causes deterioration of the fuel gauge sender such that the gauge reads only half full (if at all) even on a full tank... may mean dropping tank and replacement of fuel sender. Got a couple of dodgy refills on a trip...fuel gauge reading all over the place but generally stopped at halfway mark. Once I'd cottoned on to the issue, it took several tanks of PULP and EFI cleaner to clean the crappe off the sender...I was lucky, others not so...

[p38arover]

The same issue applied to the RRC. In fact, I have a fax I received from LR UK telling me just that.