PLS HELP: Rebuild info needed ASAP

[zem]

Hi Guys,

I am not mechanically minded so all advice appreciated and forgive the non tech description.

I sent my P38 into my local rangie mechanic with 280,000km on her to confirm a ticking noise form under the hood. The car was idling well and running good however lacked power. Turned out to be the head gasket upon their initial inspection. They took the RHS head off and found the head and block is no good (melted?). Told me I have to replace the motor. They mentioned something about the water case leaking or something and that 3 cylinders had compression leaks. That would explain the lack in power I guess. They also said something about the sleeves - again I didn't understand https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/833.jpg

They've offered to throw in another motor with 160,000km on it for AUD$5,000 fitted with 3 month warranty.
If I go down this path what should I ask about the other motor? Should I get it compression tested, heads removed and inspected prior to installing in mine?

What are my other options that are good (well this is not good) on the wallet?
Is it worth getting the heads and block reco'd? Again, I am not a mechanic so know jack in this area.

I'd love a Stage 3 from V8 Reno's in the UK but for a car that is going to pull ~$10k (injected gas recently fitted) I am very hesitant to spend more.

My plan prior to this was to get a Defender for touring as the P38 Gremlins make me nervous. (I'm not sold on the Defender yet so perhaps I'll start another thead at a later date - it's just a box - where's the leather?)

Advice, thoughts and contacts appreciated!!

Many thanks,
Zem

PS: I am based NE of Melbourne, Australia.


Sorry, I also wanted to ask is it even worth looking at keeping her long term given she has done 280,000km?
If I replace the motor is that the first of many other bits that will need replacing? Is she too old?

I have had the rear diff, all air bags and radiator done about 12 months ago.
Interior is clean and I only do about 10-15,000km per year.

Thanks again https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/834.jpg

[justinc]

Hi Guys,

I am not mechanically minded so all advice appreciated and forgive the non tech description.

I sent my P38 into my local rangie mechanic with 280,000km on her to confirm a ticking noise form under the hood. The car was idling well and running good however lacked power. Turned out to be the head gasket upon their initial inspection. They took the RHS head off and found the head and block is no good (melted?). Told me I have to replace the motor. They mentioned something about the water case leaking or something and that 3 cylinders had compression leaks. That would explain the lack in power I guess. They also said something about the sleeves - again I didn't understand https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/833.jpg

They've offered to throw in another motor with 160,000km on it for AUD$5,000 fitted with 3 month warranty.
If I go down this path what should I ask about the other motor? Should I get it compression tested, heads removed and inspected prior to installing in mine?

What are my other options that are good (well this is not good) on the wallet?
Is it worth getting the heads and block reco'd? Again, I am not a mechanic so know jack in this area.

I'd love a Stage 3 from V8 Reno's in the UK but for a car that is going to pull ~$10k (injected gas recently fitted) I am very hesitant to spend more.

My plan prior to this was to get a Defender for touring as the P38 Gremlins make me nervous. (I'm not sold on the Defender yet so perhaps I'll start another thead at a later date - it's just a box - where's the leather?)

Advice, thoughts and contacts appreciated!!

Many thanks,
Zem

PS: I am based NE of Melbourne, Australia.


Sorry, I also wanted to ask is it even worth looking at keeping her long term given she has done 280,000km?
If I replace the motor is that the first of many other bits that will need replacing? Is she too old?

I have had the rear diff, all air bags and radiator done about 12 months ago.
Interior is clean and I only do about 10-15,000km per year.

Thanks again https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/12/834.jpg

Ticking noise could've been a compression leak from the head gasket for sure, and yes these engines do suffer from slipped cylinder sleeves (Liners) and this renders the block unusable, they are repairable but expensive to do so. $5k for a used example, fitted and driveaway with warranty is pretty good,( I personally wouldn't sell/warranty ANY used P38a engine:wasntme:,) at 280K your engine WILL need a camshaft and followers, very likely crank bearings etc so yes, your engine was most likely nearly at the end of its reliable lifespan anyhow.

I would personally urge you to continue with your Defender plans if thinking about touring:)

JC

[p38arover]

I concur with JC. There is a good chance a secondhand P38A engine will have have slipped liners. These are an engine you cannot afford to overheat - and many will have been overheated.

A rebuilt engine with new tophat liners (to prevent future liner slip problems), cam, lifters, etc. is approximately $10K drive in-drive out from Davis Performance Landys here in Sydney.

[Grumbles]

$5000 for a fitted second hand motor sounds attractive. If it is a good used engine at 160,000 kms it just may buy you a good few years grace given that you only travel 10 to 15 000kms a year and have already spent dollars on ironing out some of the known gremlins [radiator, air suspension etc].

If this used engine can be inspected running then a sniff and compression test may give you some peace of mind as to its internal condition - even if you have to pay for this [and I would]. Without these tests then the risk factor increases. But then too is the warranty from someone that you trust and will honour the warranty?

But it's all a gamble. Without an engine your P38 is worth very little. With a going engine it has some value. But what year model is your P38? This too makes a difference as to retail value, whether to invest more dollars in repairing it and then either selling or keeping it. Is the rest of the car immculate or something else???? Have the blend motors been done?

Have you considered a new short engine and putting your re-conditioned heads back on it? Budget for a new water pump and cooling fan viscous coupling if you go down this route.

Lots to think about - and with no right or wrong answer available.

[DT-P38]

Hey Zem,

Firstly, congrat's for getting yours to 280,000km's! That seems a pretty fair innings for one of these.

As far as your problem is concerned, I have not been around P38's for as long as a lot of these guys, but you really have got the "number one" big P38 question in front of you... I bet it will all come down to questions like am I in this relationship for the short or long term? The sort of questions normally reserved for dealing with the ladies! Hence, that old saying about "if it's got tits or wheels" I guess!

To my knowledge: 1. It appears reasonably common for p38's to "cook"; 2. Unless you are reasonably mechanically minded or someone else is paying the bills, it seems the most cost effective "safe" fix is a new (or reco) short motor plus refitting selected reco bits during the rebuild (e.g. heads, water pump and whatever else looks like needing it). You then at least get 12 month warranties on the big $ items... well I did anyway. If you want to get rid of it though, $5K for 3 months warranty will probably get you through to a sale (pity the next guy/gal!), or definitley to a trade in (let the industry deal with any ongoing risks?).

Unfortunately, I had to answer the same question sometime ago on my '95 P38. I guess looking back, the money I spent on the new short motor+ rebuild (totalling around $7,500) was mostly a case of heart over head. Essentially that's because mine's an early model and not many pre-99's (Lucas-GEM's) fetch much more than $10K in AUST used car markets. The situation I understood I was in at the time was that there was no other real alternative. Either spend $7.5K to retain an asset worth $10K or scrap it, maybe get $1K and "write off" the difference between the 3 values as a personal loss and lesson (i.e. $1.5K). I figured I really enjoy the vehicle and would have a good as new one (well mechanically at least) that should be good for another 10-15 years (the amount of time I am happy to hang on to it for).

The only financial question I never followed through on completely with mine was how much do you really get for putting a cooked one to the scrap heap? My sums were based on a cooked one actually only being worth scrap type money ($1K)... If your vehicle has got decent accessories though, it may be worth more to you scrapped than re-built... sort after p38 bits (like roof bars, bull bars, light guards or your gas injection set up) seem to get healthy prices on e-bay. Maybe Andrew E in NSW could enlighten as to what yours is approximately worth (to a dismantler/wrecker) now. If you post the year, model (SE/HSE/Vogue), accessories and general condition more comment from this forum could well help you with the "how do the alternatives stack up" questions.

Once all the above is understood, you will probably have to start making those heart vs head decisions... like:

a. Love or hate? fix or scrap?
b. if fix, to keep or sell/trade?
c. if keep, 3 month warranty fix ($5K) or 12 month warranty fix ($7.5K)?
d. if sell/trade, 3 month warranty fix ($5K) or 12 month warranty fix ($7.5K)? Don't forget that little Ethical dilemma about stinging the industry or some poor individual!

Oh and one late thought... just in case there aren't enough considerations already... I never even thought to ask is there a cheap chev/ford v8 conversion available for p38's?

Anyway, this is all way too close to home, I feel like I'm gonna need some liquid therapy soon, its way too late at night and I'm staying out of this thread from now on!

Good Luck,

Dave & the "pretty pig"

P.S. I know you probably don't feel like dealing with "vultures" just yet, but if you do end up scrapping it, please keep me in mind for liberating your lpg injection set up... I wouldn't mind an upgrade to my mixer version!

[3toes]

I know this is spending more of your cash however as you are on gas if you go the reconditioned block / short motor and it is a 4.6 litre consider obtaining 3.9 / 4.0 litre heads for it.

[Mick_Marsh]

It sounds similar to the problem I had. I have just had my motor rebuilt. It was running on seven cylinders and was well down in compression. It had a top speed of about 80k's on the flat. The block and head had to be welded, new crank, new gas converter and new cylinder liners amongst many other things. This cost me $8,000 to get it done. This for a vehicle that's worth half that. I thought I'd paid too much' but reading this thread, maybe it was on the money.

Be prepared to get a new set of problems if you get a 160,000k motor. You might be lucky, you might not. If you are planning to get rid of the car, a second hand motor might be the best option but to me $5,000 sounds a bit pricey.
If you like the car and want to keep it, and you get your motor rebuilt, you know the history of the motor and you get an extra 160,000k of use for your money.

The final option is to sell it to a wreckers, wreck it yourself or keep it as a parts car for your next project. It all boils down to how much its worth to you financially and sentimentally.

Mine is a Series 3 Stage 1. It's worth about $3k to $3.5k But I spent $8k on the motor. It's sentimentally worth it to me (but sentimentality does have a price/limit).

Looking forward to hear what you decide.

regards
Mick

[Kalincho]

a mechanic friend and I rebuilt a second hand motor (110, 000 km's) we replaced most of the top half and changed all of the seals and gaskets whilst we had the motor out.

There is so much conflicting information regarding slipped liners etc, from what I believe (opinion only) it has more to do with the fact that the engine has or has not ever been over heated ( I imagine a hard thing to quantify on a 160, 000km motor)

I paid $4K for the full motor and probably another $3000 for all the bits and pieces, including new radiator and Hevac controller and air con compressor.
We mixed and matched the best parts of both motors and kept the rest as spares (coil pack, starter motor, heads etc) The mentality was that if I was going to keep it, fix it for the next five years. The car is now in better condition than when I first bought it for $8000.

I would be in agreement with what Dave said, its definitively heart over head. If you were to scrap it and have the time yourself, I would be pulling it apart and putting all of the bits up on ebay, as they are an enthusiast car there are always people looking for bits and pieces to fix up there own. ( I could give you a list right now)

I think that you could turn over way more $ value this way rather than selling it to a wrecker.

The question is would I do it again? To be completely honest I would have to say no. :o

2009 can be summed up as the year of heartache with my Range Rover.

2010 could be the year of the Defender.;)

[tasi devil]

am rebuilding mine as we 'speak', dropped a valve. got worse as we investigated further.
it'll be back together by end of January, as i intend to keep it for 10yrs. plus. so the decision was to rebuild with top hat liners and know what i've got for the future.
apparently another reason the liners slip is because the head gasket doesn't come over the edge of the liner and they rust between the block and liner allowing slippage. liners are good in mine but doing them anyway.

totally agree Kalincho

Kalincho: 2009 can be summed up as the year of heartache with my Range Rover

............tasi

[p38arover]

I know this is spending more of your cash however as you are on gas if you go the reconditioned block / short motor and it is a 4.6 litre consider obtaining 3.9 / 4.0 litre heads for it.

Why? The 4.0 is the same as the 4.6 - ERR4323. Later 3.9 heads were also ERR4323 and I think you'll find the only difference to the 3.9 ERR3649 head is the lack of the outer 4 bolt holes.

[LandyAndy]

There is a mob in Perth advertising new 4.6 motors for $5450.
see this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/marketplace-alerts/94914-new-landrover-motors.html
Andrew

[3toes]

Why? The 4.0 is the same as the 4.6 - ERR4323. Later 3.9 heads were also ERR4323 and I think you'll find the only difference to the 3.9 ERR3649 head is the lack of the outer 4 bolt holes.


Vagrancies of the price of parts resulting in the 3.9 / 4.0 heads being cheaper. This was the case a couple of years ago when was helping a friend and of course reflects UK experience not Australia. Not everyone (from experience even in the trade) understands the part numbers and interchangability. Perhaps a reflection of supply and demand with more interest in the 4.6 engine.

[Traco]

My suggestion: don't risk buying a used 4.6 which may create the same porousity issues for you. Invest in a top hat / flangred liner block at least.

Better still get the best RV8 replacement engine in the business made by Turner Engineering in the UK; they are the bench mark.

Turner Engineering are a very professional outfit, a husband and wife team (Richard and Frida) with a couple of other employees. Established since 1979 they are now recognised as the market leader world-wide in the re-manufacture of Land Rover engines.

Their standards of engineering are very high. Their ductile iron flanged liners are the class of the field with a clever little seal that limits the chances of further problems.

A lot of Turner's engines go to other suppliers of RV8s in the UK and abroad, and they do V8 performance heads specifically for Land Rovers which includes a very a nice job of smoothing the airflow into the inlet valves.

Their prices are reasonable. UKP3,400 for a new 4.6 long engine outright price, includes new pistons, pair of their performance heads, new rocker gear, new standard cam, lifters, pushrods and timing gears with all other gaskets and seals supplied for you to finish the build (front cover, rocker covers, etc). With standard heads it's about UKP3,000.

They include a three year warranty on all their engines.

They can build a long engine in 5 days and ship it to Aus within another 7 door to door and insured using DHL for UKP500. You then have to pay customs import duties at 10% of the AUD value then add GST (10% of the value + duty amount).

And then get it fitted and set up which should cost no more then $800 - 1200 depending on who you ask.

Rover V8 Engines for Range Rover, Discovery and Defender, remanufactured and new options available (http://www.turner-engineering.co.uk/html/V8enginesreman.html)

[zem]

Hi Guys,

Well I went another way and sourced a used motor from Adelaide and had it sent to my mechanic. Motor inc freight cost $3300, install (inc gas and removal of previous motor - inc heads) was $1500.

The good news is the motor has done only 90,000km - has a new short motor inc Blisten cam, compression tested etc. Just clicked over 500km so still running her in. Will take it easy for another 250km then give it a right boot full.

Idles great on both fuels and so far I am happy...touch wood.
Will keep you all posted.

Oh, I plan to keep her for at least 2 yrs to cover costs....plus I love her :)

[zem]

Just a quick update on the new motor. All running great until an unexpected overheating incident last week. Pulled over immediately as gauge went from centre into the red in seconds. Let it cool, added water and presto.

Now my question is where did the water leak from? Time for a pressure test?

[PaulP38a]

That sucks Zem. I assume no external signs of coolant leakage? Bright green or red coolant is pretty hard to miss... use a mirror to check up under the exhaust manifolds if you can.

If internal leak, milky oil or oily coolant is a sure sign of head gasket failure. Only way to be sure is take the heads off and find the culprit.

Maybe before you take this drastic step, check the thermostat and replace it anyway.

Cheers, Paul.

[RR46]

Just a quick update on the new motor. All running great until an unexpected overheating incident last week. Pulled over immediately as gauge went from centre into the red in seconds. Let it cool, added water and presto.

Now my question is where did the water leak from? Time for a pressure test?

G,Day ZEM

I had a 2000 mod HSE for 5 years and sold it to my brother a year ago as it was a good car. He had a similar problem to yours, where he was driving along and the temp gauge shot up very fast into the red. As I am a mechanic by trade we started with the basics first, checked oil/coolant for contamination OK, checked/replaced thermostat OK, went straight to the water pump and found it was shot. Replaced the water pump and all has been fine. The water pump was replaced about 7 months ago and the car has done approx 200000kms and all is good.

P.S. He also had been topping up the cooling system once a month (not much coolant needed) for the past 3 months prior to replacing the water pump. Since the new pump has been fitted there has been on more coolant loss

If it was me I would be starting with the basics first. Hope its nothing major.

Cheers Gavin

[mike 90 RR]

Now my question is where did the water leak from? Time for a pressure test?



Firstly ... When you replaced the engine .. Did you "rod" or "replaced" the radiator?

Secondly .... Does your viscous fan actually work? ... Did you replace it? .... Did you check it? .... IE ....Does it ROAR? when you first start the car in the morning & when it's hot ... Especially when the A/C is ON


.... You can do a "controlled" static test .....
Have a "thermo heat sensor temp gun" at hand if possible .... Or watch the temp gauge religiously and feel (if that's possible) the motor for temp

Put the front end of the car on ramps
Make sure the radiator / system is full of coolant
HANDBRAKE ON ... start motor ... Put the Auto in gear
Turn on the A/C to put the cooling system under load
Idle the motor and get it up to temp
Check with the "thermo gun" on the motor to keep the temp under control

1: ... Put the Auto in Park (Knock it out of gear)
2: ... Using a good torch .... Check for drips of coolant all over the motor .. On top & underneath
3: ... When hot, (that's what the temp lasers for) the viscous fan should work .... IE ....Does it ROAR? when hot
4: ... Stop the motor ... Pressure of the cooling system will build up further / once again ... Using a good torch .... Check for drips of coolant all over the motor .. On top & underneath
5: ... Turn off the A/C to take the cooling load off the system (as needed)

Hope the above helps ... and hope it's just a bung "Viscous fan unit"


Mike
;)