HOW HOT

[banjo]

Ok i made a shrowd & put the bigger fan on ,only using the electric temp gauge now..seems ok but after i fitted the shrowd i started the car & it was only running for about 5minutes & the radiator was hot i couldnt put my hand on it should it be that hot in such a quick time...??????????

[BigJon]

If it was just idling I wouldn't have thought it would be that hot that fast.

[banjo]

idling with choke on was cold ...

[Blknight.aus]

somethings wrong there....

check
the lower radiator hose for temperature with a blanket in front of the radiator from start when the top hose begins to get warm if theres no increase in temp at the bottom theres no flow, either the radiator is blocked the thermostat is stuck closed, the pump is eroded or you have a hose bockage.

the timing of the valves, the spark and for restrictions on the exhuast do a leak down test on a cylinder thats on the exhaust stroke.

If the timing is out the engine will be fighting itself to keep running, it will get hot just trying to idle you will be down on power.

Is the fan too big, is it creating too much flow and not allowing enough time for the coolant to transfer heat to the atmosphere?

if its none of that then I have no good news for you.

[LandyAndy]

Is there anybody with holden 6/Series experience that can look at this for Banjo.
He has been chasing his tail for a long time.
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Does the bottom hose have the anti-collapse coil in it? The water pump sucks the hose flat if there isn't one and thus no water flow. Make one out of a wire coat hanger if necessary.

Have you had the core rodded out?

[LandyAndy]

This is an ongoing issue in another thread Brian,radiator is new.Anti colapse spring is a good point that hasnt been mentioned.
Would be good if somebody near Banjo with the experience could go thru it with him,it has to be a simple issue thats been overlooked.
Andrew

[zulu Delta 534]

Does the radiator stay as hot as you describe or is this just the initial "thermostat opening" surge?
It should be running around 80degrees or so and that is fairly hot to touch.
Is this a Holden powered vehicle? If so the position of the fan to the radiator will naturally be out of kilter. I would suggest in this case either a larger radiator, a cross flow radiator or cheapest of all an electric fan.
Still check for blockages as mentioned elsewhere though.
Regards
Glen

[rovey]

gday,from what i remember from the ist thread you have now made your radiator more eficiant at cooling with the shrowd now,however when running it will get very hot to handle, (remember 82oc thermostat opening, this means it should keep it all running at that , theretically). It shouldnt get that hot that fast, mine takes about five minutes also but after that it is maintained-----. I think that the engine modifications you mentioned may be the cause of its increasing heat.i think you mentioned it had different carbies , a hot cam and a 60 thou overbore? This is asking for trouble to cool when a forby is offroading! check if its not running rich,the timing is probobly out due to the cam differences and 202,s are known to run hot on a overbore as the gaps between pots get smaller and clog up causing restricted flow. check your total water capacity of the system when filled , if its smaller than the standard 202 system you nead to increase.

[banjo]

This is an ongoing issue in another thread Brian,radiator is new.Anti colapse spring is a good point that hasnt been mentioned.
Would be good if somebody near Banjo with the experience could go thru it with him,it has to be a simple issue thats been overlooked.
Andrew

na no lower spring but it doesnt suck the hose atall.its ok doesnt do a thing to it.

[banjo]

ok everything that everyone has said is fine ..i put the cowl on..what i think is the problem is the timming..when we first regod the car it was all going good didnt do a thing to the engine we drove it for a week or two..then we thought we would give it a tune as it was blowing smoke (just) we new the origanal carby was knackered.so we put the holley on it (350)...then we brought all new ignition ,plugs,leads,cap,rotor,coil all good not the cheap stuff..then we set the timing to 6 degrees BTDC..BUT the thing is the timing mark on the pully was where the belt meets pully origanaly & the plugs where on backwards the number 1 lead was where the number 6 lead should have been thats when we found out that the cam & crank are not origanal they have JP then a pic of a kangaroo then VK stamped on them both & know one has been able to help me with what they are from or who.....So i put everything the right way around & set the timming right since then it hasnt run properly & has sat in the shed all this time just going for a quick drive when i have done the stuff use all suggested..but to know avail....So i think i am going to have to pay a machanic to sort it all out but i cant afford it yet so will have to sit in shed a bit longer till then...

THANX jason...

[Bigbjorn]

Have you correct alignment of the fan to the shroud? Fan blades parallel to the core, and reasonably close to the core? Fan blades not too far, or not far enough into the shroud? One of the photos looks like the blades are at an angle to the core in the vertical plane. Engine mounts maybe need lowering slightly to correct this.

Have you checked the camshaft installation against crank position? Use a degree wheel on the crank and a dial gauge on a cam lobe. Likewise static ignition timing against actual piston position. Use a dial gauge with a long pushrod into the plug hole and a test light across the points.

[LandyAndy]

Jason
It would be really good if anybody closeby to you with Series/Holden 6 experience that could have a good look at it for you.
Ive owned a couple and sorted the same overheating problems,problem is I may as well be on the other side of the world.
Anybody close by willing to have a look at it?????
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

ok everything that everyone has said is fine ..i put the cowl on..what i think is the problem is the timming..when we first regod the car it was all going good didnt do a thing to the engine we drove it for a week or two..then we thought we would give it a tune as it was blowing smoke (just) we new the origanal carby was knackered.so we put the holley on it (350)...then we brought all new ignition ,plugs,leads,cap,rotor,coil all good not the cheap stuff..then we set the timing to 6 degrees BTDC..BUT the thing is the timing mark on the pully was where the belt meets pully origanaly & the plugs where on backwards the number 1 lead was where the number 6 lead should have been thats when we found out that the cam & crank are not origanal they have JP then a pic of a kangaroo then VK stamped on them both & know one has been able to help me with what they are from or who.....So i put everything the right way around & set the timming right since then it hasnt run properly & has sat in the shed all this time just going for a quick drive when i have done the stuff use all suggested..but to know avail....So i think i am going to have to pay a machanic to sort it all out but i cant afford it yet so will have to sit in shed a bit longer till then...

THANX jason...


what pay... nooooooo...

patients... this is gunna be a long one.

[V8Ian]

what pay... nooooooo...

patients... this is gunna be a long one.
You tell 'em Dr Dave.;)

[Stuck]

PM sent.

[Blknight.aus]

this part of timing the engine is intended to get everything happening in near enough the right order that the engines bits are within range of being adjusted to correct position.

to start with open a new browser and using google find a copy of the old holden waltz leave that playing on loop for an hour or so.

take the rocker cover, plugs, leads and dizzy cover off of the engine and you'll also need

about 12 inches of tie wire folded in half with the bend tightened up and the legs parallel to each other.
a paint marking pen or similar
a seamstress's tape measure

for starters turn the engine over by hand until the number 6 exhaust valve is starting to close. This means that you are approching TDC on compression for number 1 cylinder or should be if the engine is assembled and valve timed correctly.

at this point insert the bit of tie wire bend first into the number 1 spark plug hole and turn the engine by hand just a little further and you should see the bit of wire start to poke itself back out of the hole. Mark the piece of wire where it comes out of the head, remove it and bend it at that point. Put the bit of wire back into number 1 plug hole and turn the engine untill you get a feel for where the wire just starts to touch the crown of the piston.

find or make a timing mark on the front of the timing cover and then mark the crank pully at that location.

Now turn the engine backwards untill the piston meets the wire again then mark pully one more time.

If the marks on the pully are closer than 45 degrees or more than about 90 degrees apart I reccomend changing the length of the wire and repeating the above procedure. you can do it with the marks closer or further apart but it becomes difficult to accurately do the measuring. Shortening the wire brings the marks together and lengthening it pushes them apart.

When you're happy with the marks (double check them) wrap the seamstress's tape around the pully and measure the distance between the 2 marks. Find half way and mark that on the pully.

This is you confirmed TDC mark on the pully I consider it accurate to within 1-2 degrees which is accurate enough to set the valve timing as missing a tooth on the timing gear or chain on average will put you out by at least 10-12 degrees on the crank.

With that found turn the engine forwards until valve set 6 is on or approaching the rock again (exhaust closing and inlet opening) and you should have the piston at TDC on compression on number one when the timing mark you calculated out (the one in the middle on the pully) lines up with the timing mark on the timing cover..

To confirm drop the piece of wire back into the number 1 plug hole, mark the wire next to the head and then crank the engine forwards a little more and the wire should start to move into the engine. If it does, remove the wire and turn the engine backwards to TDC insert the wire again and then continue reversing the engine. Once more the wire should dissapear into the engine.

IF you cant make the above work the engine is assembled incorrectly and the valve timing is out or the pully is slipping on the crank.

to confirm the valve timing turn the crank 360 degrees and now valve set number 1 should be on the rock. As you approach the rock watch the valve movement by eye the overlap of the valves motion should be about equal at TDC (both rockers should have about the same % of travel)

keeping mind on the firing order (this is a good time to set + check the tappet clearances) turn the crank over 2 more times while you watch the valve gear he valves should go on the rock in the same sequence as the firing order. Observe the rocker gears motion and as each set goes on the rock this is an ideal time to check its partnering cylinders valve seal by doing a leakdown test.

Once everythings been checked roll the crank over to TDC, firing on number one again while you watch the motion of the rotor arm in the dizzy, Mark a DOR arrow on the outside of the dizzy housing or the block where you can see it and when you stop at TDC put a further mark on the housing where the rotor arm is pointing. This is the lead that should be firing the number 1 cylinder.

Put the cap back on and if you have the gear do a compression test on all cylinders both dry then wet.

with that done place the leads back on in the correct sequence and in theory the engine should start It will be running rough as the the spark timing is only ball parked and the following which are part of timing the engine have yet to be set and adjusted

1. the initial static timing
2. idle speed
3. the mechanical advance
4. the vac advance

the Emission control gear will also need to be checked as will the carbys settings.

[banjo]

Hi anthony thanx heaps will keep you in mind & tnax for the offer my brother inlaw is going to take a look at it this week for me he used to own better ride next to th nights home ground there..& he still goes in there to work for him self on weekend ,has all the gear in there so hopefuly he can sort it....will keep everyone posted if he cant sort it then i will just ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????

[Blknight.aus]

if he cant sort it then i will just ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????

keep asking questions and providing information untill it gets sorted?

[banjo]

hey guys this is how i done the timing i followed these instructions..
Retiming the Engine From Scratch:



Note the Rotor and Harmonic Balancer positions. The Rotor is pointing to the timing mark on the Distributor. The Harmonic Balancer marks line up. Note both Valves on Cylinder 1 are closed. Click to Enlargen. Photo by MICKHG1970.
To retime a Red/Blue/Black 6 Cylinder engine from scratch ...



Check that the position of the Timing Mark on the Harmonic Balancer is correct for your Engine. Red is different from Blue/Black.

Has the Harmonic Balancer Spun on its Centre
Then remove the Oil Filler cap from the Rocker Cover.
Keep your fingers out of the inside of the Rocker Cover. A closing Valve can do terrible damage.
Make sure you have a gasket under the Distributor Body Flange to keep oil in on the older engines and air out on the later ones.
Rotate the engine and watch the Valves.
The front most valve is the No. 1 Cylinder Exhaust Valve,
the next one most easily seen from the Oil Filler Hole is the No. 1 Cylinder Inlet Valve.
As the crankshaft rotates, you will see the No. 1 Cylinder Inlet Valve bob down and back up again. The very next time the harmonic balancer timing mark aligns with the graduation scale will be the proper TDC. This will be the Static Setting or Static Timing.
For many Engines this setting is 6 degrees of advance.
Rotate the Crankshaft until the 6 degree mark (or the angle needed for your Engine) is aligned
with the mark on the Harmonic Balancer.
Looking at the Distributor with the Distributor Cap removed, you'll notice that there is a scribe mark on the inner lip that corresponds to the No. 1 Cylinder Spark Plug lead connection inside the Distributor Cap.
Align the centre of the Rotor Button with this mark then push the Distributor gently into the Engine block.
The Distributor Mounting Hole can be a tight fit and the Distributor Shaft will naturally rotate as you do so. You will need to rotate the Distributor Shaft in anticipation of this rotation during the installation.
When the Distributor is installed correctly the Vacuum Advance Module should have room to allow the Distributor to rotate around and still have enough space for the Vacuum Advance Line to be easily connected, and the scribe mark on the Distributor Body will be aligned with the Distributor Shaft.
A bad example would be the Vacuum Advance Module jammed up against the Engine block.
Insert the Distributor Pinch Bolt and Bracket but leave the Pinch Bolt loose enough so that the Distributor Body can be rotated with a little bit of effort. Don't leave it loose or the Distributor Body may be rotated by the Drive Gear. This will destroy both the Gear and the Wiring.
Refit the Distributor Cap and re-connect the wires to the Coil.
Replace the Oil Filler Cap.
Leave the Vacuum Advance Line disconnected for now.
Connect a Timing Light and start the Engine.
The timing light should closely correspond with the 6 degree mark provided the Idle speed is close. Rotate the Distributor Body until the Timing is correct. Clockwise retards the Spark, anti clockwise advances the Spark.
Slowly tighten the Pinch Bolt and re-check the timing as you do so. Slight movements of the Distributor can change the timing. Adjust accordingly.
Reconnect the Vacuum Advance Line and perform the Dynamic Checks.

[edit] Troubleshooting:

[banjo]

and these ones i got them off a holden site karen found..



[edit] Further Timing Red/Blue/Back Six Cylinder Engine Details:


The Crankshaft must have the Harmonic Balancer Timing Mark in the correct position. The Timing Mark on the Harmonic Balancer may be in the wrong place or the outer part of the Balancer may have spun in the anticlockwise direction on the Balancer centre so check the images at this page to be sure the marks are in the correct position for your model Holden Engine. There are 2 broad categories.



All Red engines use the Red Harmonic Balancer.

All Blue/Black engines use the Blue/Black Harmonic Balancer.



1. First set the Crankshaft to the correct position by removing the Oil Filler Cap from the Rocker Cover and watching the frontmost Valve (the Number 1 Inlet Valve) as you rotate the Crankshaft. You can rotate the Crankshaft by putting a 1/2 " Spanner on the a Water Pump Bolt if you have Thermo Fans. Pressing down on the Fan Belt on the side nearest the Fuel Pump as you turn the Spanner will make the Fan Belt grip better.

2. When the Inlet Valve starts to open, the Number 1 Piston is beginning to descend on the Intake Stroke. When the Inlet Valve shuts the Number 1 Piston is on the Compression Stroke.



Note that there is a second Top Dead Centre at the end of the Exhaust Stroke sometimes called "On the Rock" or "Valve Overlap". This occurs as the Exhaust Valve is closing. This is the brief period where both Valve are paritally open. The Timing Mark will also line up here, but this is not the TDC position you need.



3. Keep rotating the Crankshaft until the Harmonic Balancer Timing Mark lines up with the 6 degree mark on the Timing Cover. Now you have the Crankshaft set at 6 degrees before Top Dead Centre set on the Number 1 Compression Stroke set accurately.

4. Now position the Rotor Button, Distributor Body and Number 1 Spark Plug Lead all to line up as per the 6 cylinder Diagram at this page.



You have now set the Static Timing to 6 degrees.





The Distributor is in the incorrect positoin. It has been rotated too far anti-clockwise making timing adjustment and Vacuum Hose connection very difficult to achieve. Click to Enlargen. Image by Red Seat.




The Distributor is in the incorrect positoin. It has been rotated too far anti-clockwise making timing adjustment and Vacuum Hose connection very difficult to achieve. Click to Enlargen. Image by Red Seat.



[edit] Checking the Static Timing With the Engine Running:

Once the Static Timing is set, remove the Vacuum Advance Line from the Distributor and plug it off. This makes sure that no Vacuum gets to the Distributor and that there is no Air Leak in the Fuel System.



Connect a Timing Light and start the Engine. You now aim to make the Ignition Timing and the Idle Speed agree. They will interact with each other.



If there is too much advance, the Idle Speed will be too high.

If there is too little advance, the Idle Speed will be too low.



You may need to adjust the Ignition Timing to 6 degrees first, then check the Tachometer.

Adjust the Timing and Throttle Stop until the Idle Speed and Timing are correct.



Once done, reconnect the Vacuum Advance Line to the Distributor.



The Bosch HEI page has timing from scratch details

[Blknight.aus]

all of which assumes that the timing mark on the crank pully is in the correct position on the crank.

the long post I gave lets you confirm your timing marks position and then once thats done you can run on with the rest of those instructions which deals with the fine timing of the engine saving me the effort of having to type it all out.

[banjo]

SORRY i had done all this before your post but i will be printing out your post & doing as you advised...

[banjo]

this is the cowl i made i think it will do the job ok....i hope,,,,,,,,,

21778

21779

21780

21781

[Blknight.aus]

urm thats not going to help all that much but its a good start...


what you need to do now is to make up a hoop of metal that goes around the fan (space it off about 1-2cm) then cut it in half support the top piece in its correct place and tack in some bracing rods to hold it to your new shroud then check out the location of the bottom half of the hoop.

If it still fits up nicely pull your shroud out and fabricate in panels that run from the hoop out.

slide that back in and do the same for the bottom. When you have the bottom piece in place dont tack it to the shroud but make an overlap that will bolt through.

I suspect that with that shroud you will be getting a lot of recirculation which will be reducing the effect of the fan.

[banjo]

well karen took out the rover today to pickup our papers,we deliver them.she got the papers & when she went to start it up to come home it wouldnt start so she rang me on the phone it sounded like it wasnt getting any spark ,,so i went & met her thereagain 5min drive..when i got there checked everything under the bonet all looked fine so i went & tried to start it nothing it turned over but no start,,so i pumped the pedal a bit held it down bingo started with a bit of smoke i recon she flooded it thats all..anyway while karen was driving it she said the temp gauge stayed on the 140 mark all the time...so i drove it home & gave it a boot full (cleaning the carby out ):) till i got stuck behind a slow moving truck,,well it stayed on the 140 mark & rose a little while @ trafic lights ,went back to the 140 mark once moving again...when i got home i turned it off then unlocked everything to put papers inside,then i thought i would just see if it would start again bingo as soon as i turned the key.but i noticed before i started it just with the ignision on the temp gauge went up to about 160 maybe a little more ,,wouldnt that just be because the car was off & no air going threw..?????????????????????????

[Stuck]

Hi Banjo,
It's normal for the temp to rise when you switch them off because the coolant isn't flowing. The Holden 6 normally runs at around 80 Celsius or 180 Farenheit so I'm presuming your thermostat is either sticking, has its guts cut out or has been removed. I know from experience that the 3rd one can cause overheating when the motor's revving pretty hard (as they do in a Rover with standard diffs).
What was the gremlin that was causing yours to overheat ?.
Cheers,
Anthony.

[banjo]

Hey stuck the car was overheating but i think it mite be ok now ..the temp sender off the engine wasnt compatable the dash gauge & was allways reading HOT so we got an electric one & it was reading 180 plus but we only had a 4blade fan on it with the thermo fan in front of the radiator.but once i put the 6blade fan on it it was getting to 150 to 160 so we put a thermostat in as it never had one ,we got the coldest one we could for the engine witch from memerry if a 70 degree plus i drilled a couple of extra little hole in it bout the same size as the one in it with that valve thingy..but the radiator was getting realy hot couldnt realy touch it.but everything is new so i think it maybe ok,but i do have to tune that holley i know that..plus now it has a cowl sort of plus we diconected the origanal temp sender & gauge.now it just stays around the 140 when driving & about 150 to 155 @ traffic lights so we thought that was pretty good...just need to put coolant in now as its only water but we think it mite be sorted so i better put coolant in...
PS havent had to run the thermofan since the bigger fan (6 blade ) & cowl has been fitted witch can only be a good thing...

[banjo]

oh yeah karen said that the radiator & bonet where still hot after it had been running well it was when it wouldnt start & she opened the bonet...

[agrojnr]

Holden six banger don't like starting when hot never have never will but electronic ign will help.

I had a 186 in my series and in summer she ran at 95-105c (i only had a thermo LARGE) but when I changed mu coolent once I had a problem like yours.

I filled mine up with the thermostat cover and thermostat removed until full then installed the above and top hose added coolant and topped up.

I let it idle with rad cap off for 10mins or so and once it started to warm I put cap back on. I then pumped all hose's just too make sure and then went for a drive. When back waited it too cool and checked/top up the water level.

Mine was runninf 15psi cap + overflow bottle (series 3 rad)

Adam

[Stuck]

I was going off of Holdens specs for the thermostat. Make sure the radiator is able to handle the higher psi cap. I ran a 13psi on my old series 3 and it caused a few tank failures until my radiator bloke told me that the old Rovers only ran a 7psi cap as standard. Mine may not have been a series 3 radiator though.
Cheers,
Anthony.

[banjo]

The one thats on it now is a 16psi but i have an old 13psi cap there will try that aswell.......
i had to top up the water in it thismorning ,with the overflow whats the go it seem as if it sucks water up from the bottle is that normal,it does flow into it aswell but i think its aslo sucking it up to..MMMMMMMMMMMMMM not sure..

[Stuck]

If it's a recirculating system the radiator will overflow into the bottle as the engine warms up and draw the coolant back in when it cools. There are 2 types of cap, a non recirculating cap has a seal only on the bit that goes inside the filler neck and the recirculating one will have that seal and a seal under the big bit that you turn to remove the cap. Just thinking about it, it might have been a 9lb cap that I was told was standard on the old Landy's.
Cheers,
Anthony.

[banjo]

well i worked out that it a recirculating system thanx stuck.& karen has been driving it around for the last 2 days & allday yesterday doing the shoping & seems to be just staying at the 140 mark with no ill effects anywhere..But karen says it like driving a new car new for us anyway & tells me thats it she is going to use it all the time now cause its easy to drive & easy to park so it looks like i have lost me car,,LOL....
so keep an eye out for it ...& you will get a wave thats the best part of owning a over.....

[Blknight.aus]

good to hear its sorted.....
just to be daft....

is that 140 in farenheight or centigrade? if its farenheight thats only 60 degrees centigrade and 160 is 70.. both of which will feel hot to the touch by your bare hand.

[banjo]

yeah it 140f or 60 degrees..& it is hot to touch you couldnt leave your hand on it ..

[Blknight.aus]

thats normal op temp, anything up to 190 deg f isnt even worth worrying about

[banjo]

Anyone know of a cheap landy 4cylinder engine around close to us (newcastle) that karen could pickup for me,i still dont like the holden engine plus i realy need something to do before i deside to sell the rover out of boredom....

[Blknight.aus]

I might have one coming available..

I have in the works a diesel conversion on a vehicle that has a 4 pot (long way off) and know of someone who has killed his SWB via a farming accident and may be willing to part it out.

its only going to be of use to you based on your definition of CLOSE.....

there are a few diesels floating around that you might be able to get your hands on, refurb then install.

[banjo]

Anything realy would be good just need something to do ..but karen gets lost realy easy & i mean lost to the point she says i cant see any signs & she rings me & says i'm lost how do i get back..but the new gps thingy we got is now her best friend....& Maitland is a very long drive for her so anything over 30 mins is to far for her..witch is better than me at the moment..5mins to long for me..

[banjo]

UM i think QLD mite be a little to far for her..
shame i dont speak to my dickhead brother anymore he could do alot for us all on here as he runs up & bown from gladstone to port agutter in a Bdouble well i think he is still doing that run, so he could pickup & drop off for a lot of us on here & it would only cost a carton of beer...

[Blknight.aus]

knowing my luck my next posting cycle will have me in NSW....I'll find you an engine then.