The RRC "Cost Effective Maintenance" thread

[Mercguy]

Yes, I'm starting this as a bit of a blog thread, to document the effectiveness of CEM, used in accordance with their instructions.

For those who haven't heard of CEM, theyre a business in Sumner Park QLD (been there for decades) and produce some maintenance products to help extend engine life and service intervals.

Notably, they make 2 products which are quite well-distributed and have been in use for many years successfully.

However, like any maintenance regime "Individual results may vary" and I've got a piece of reciprocating junk in my engine bay called a rover 3.9L V8 with 350,000km on it, and it's never been pulled down.

I know what the condition of this vehicle is, having done several 'popular' aftermarket oil system flushes, and tried other snake-oil products over the years, but this is the first time I'm going to give CEM a go, even though I have known about them for years.

Part of the reason I never bothered before was the product cost. it seemed ridiculous, when I could get the same stuff at the parts store in a wynns or nulon bottle and pay less than a quarter of the price and get 3 times as much....

But, as one oil company claims..... oils aint oils..... so too apparently are oil flush treatments.


So, let's baseline this thing, and outline what we want to achieve.

In the past, oil changes are regular 5000km affairs, with penrite synthetic 20w-60 (the old girls a bit noisy on thinner oil) a can of liquimoly MOS2 additive and use mahle filters. So in other words I'm not a complete cheapskate when it comes to oil changes.

I've always done a routine flush treatment with every change, in accordance with bottle specs. I also use an upper-engine cleaning foam, such as threebond, in the PCV hoses, flame trap, throttle body and plenum, to ensure oily residue is removed.

I decided late last week that I'd give CEM a try, as I was not getting satisfactory results with my regular routine.

Now, some caveats:

1. I do not care about this engine. I have a swap coming soon, so if this engine kicks the bucket, I'm not concerned. in otherwords, if you want to learn from my experiment, by all means observe, but - DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME I think you know what I'm implying here....

2. the engine oil change was done on friday, and it is currently running the full synth penrite hpr diesel in the same 20-60 weight. I'm doing this specifically to ensure that any carbon remains in suspension, as a diesel engine requires (to ensure it drains out instead of sludging) So anything I can do to improve the ability of the CEM additive is already in place.

3. The additive will first be added as a 2x recommended "shock" treatment and run in the engine over the next 2500-5000km - after having an extensive discussion with Jimmy from CEM about the characteristics of the product, I am more than satisfied my methodology will not adversely affect the results.

4. The additive will be run subsequently on each oil change at the recommended dosage, for 'continuous' use in the sump, not just as a flush.

5. a de-carbonizing fuel treatment has also been purchased. My intention is to first obtain a borescope to see what the piston crowns look like - I'm less concerned about the inlet valves or exhaust ports, I know they will have crap on them at 350,000km, so I'm not concerned about it. I'll start this product after I have a scope and reference pics, and follow the recommended procedure and check at each oil change interval, to ascertain the effectiveness.

Reporting will be at each flush / change. As I said before, I'm simply documenting the results. I do not care at this stage, whether or not they make a difference. The point is to just wait and see what the results are at each stage.

Engine condition:

It must be noted that the engine has some minor blowby. it's not significant, but can be noticed @ WOT high rpm.

There is a LOT of hard carbon on the valvetrain components and the underside of the rocker covers. lubrication appears to be restricted in this area on both sides of the valley.

the engine is running rich, but I have no intention whatsoever of changing this. The cam is worn, the lifters are noisy, the pushrods are probably caked with crap - it doesn't matter.

Engine starts, runs fine. idle is stable. has leaky exhaust manifold gasket on drivers side - I have replacements, havent bothered to do an R&R on the exhaust yet.

So, with that all being said, today I will add to a warm running engine exactly twice the dose per litre of oil, and the vehicle will run this for at least 2500km.


The purpose of doing it this way, is the nature of the product - it is an oil-borne surfactant, and is designed to break down deposits, but it can only do so if the oil is cirulating over those areas. So, in the upper valvetrain area, I do not expect to see an immediate result - if anything, I'm expecing a non-result. But to give it a fighting chance, I'll be running a 2500km minimum drain interval, unless the oil gets really filthy - in which case, it will be documented.

I have no intention of sending oil samples away on this engine - it's simply not worth the expense.

I know others have used CEM, and the results are mixed, but appear to be in support of the effectiveness of the product. For me it is simply "time will tell".

I'll keep you posted on progress.

Cheers.

[Mercguy]

Update #1

After running the engine with the elevated level of the flush treatment for the last 2500km, it was time to drop the oil and see where we stood.
Unfortunately I did not have the opportunity to take images of the oil, but there is no doubt it was exceptionally filthy. I expect that there will be more to come with the next change.

I will also be pulling the rocker cover later in the week to verify how much cleaning in the upper valvetrain occurred, but I do not expect miracles.

I can be certain however, that the lower crankcase, lifters and oil galleries are very clean, as the shellac coloured deposits on the internal surfaces (at least the areas visible through the sump plug and oil filter housing) observed previously have now been eliminated in their entireity - they are as clean as new material.

The engine has been refilled with the same oil as the previous service, and it is already noticeably quieter.
It also feels like it is not working as 'hard' (rpm) to achieve the same acceleration rate.

I've also been using the FTC decarbonizer in the recommended dosage and looking through the plug holes with the scope, it has cleaned up the bores somewhat, as the shellac in the crosshatching has reduced to nearly nothing and the piston crowns appear to be a little less contaminated than before. I wasn't able to get enough twist in the lens to see the valves or throats.

I will now continue to run the engine flush at the current operating interval of 2500km, until the engine swap is underway, and will likely tear down the engine, or at least pull the sump afterwards, to see if the internals are OK.

with 354,000 on the original unopened engine, I'm surprised it's taking such a beating. As I said originally, we have nothing to lose on this exercise - it's a learning curve and will help to establish whether or not an increased concentration can effectively reduce the hard carbon deposits in areas where there is a continuous flow of lubricating fluid. Given this is not the inside of the rocker cover, or the valvetrain gear, it will be an interesting observation when the rocker cover comes off.

I will put the liqui-moly MoS2 in the engine after I have completed the top end inspection.

One thing I will add last-minute.
The FTC stuff appears to have an interesting 'side-effect' when in use - and that is under heavy load at high rpm, it really punches out some soot from the exhaust. So perhaps it is working and there is just so much junk in the engine, that it will take some time before it's appreciably cleaner.

I'll endeavour to review the oil sample this week and get some images of the valvetrain, so you can see just how horrid this thing is.

[Mercguy]

Well it was too bloody cold and windy outside today to do an oil filtration analysis... BUT I did decide to do something better.
Look inside the upper valvetrain components..

I also added the second treatment of CEM (approx 60ML) and a can of liquimoly MoS2 - which is my staple "additive"
The vehicle had a 2 hour round trip yesterday, and what amazed me was that the oil on the dipstick this morning was unbeliveably clear... almost as if the engine hadn't been run after the change.
That was interesting I thought. Normally it's gone a little brown after a good long run, but not this time...

Now, if you've never seen a cooked engine before, then you may find this interesting.
If you have and it makes you ill or angry, look away now.
I'll let the pics speak for themselves (mostly)

The rocker cover underside before cleaning - note the carbon. This is mostly in tact as I remember before I commenced treatment. It appears to have 'softened' and is not as dusty.
Last time I had this off it was hard feral soot. After the CEM in the engine for 2500km, it's almost completely soft. Not totally, but the treatment has penetrated the hard carbon, which I wasn't expecting it to effect much, if at all.
IMG_6694.jpgIMG_6697.jpg

So, After about 15 minutes of kero and a soft nylon brush (would have been less than 5 mins if my parts washer hadn't kicked the bucket),
We have:
IMG_6699.jpg
it's somewhat cleaner - Mostly due to the CEM. I did have a few areas which have softened, but are still stubborn. Nonetheless, it's a massive improvement over how it was when I first laid eyes on it.

This is what was left behind after the kero was drained into a container. It's hard crusty stuf from the back side of the baffle plate - it was truly horrid stuff - about 1/8" thick and softened a little by the CEM, but nowhere near as the rest of the assembly. I didn't get a pic of it because as I was brushing it, the stuff flicked all over the place, mostly on me.
IMG_6702.jpg

and this is the upper valvetrain. Notice that a lot of detritus has gone, and what is left is softening, and can be wiped away (see retainers)
IMG_6705.jpg

ready to go back in. No need to go ape over it, we just want to see how this will compare over the next 2500km, against the passenger side.
IMG_6706.jpg

So I have deliberately not removed the passenger side rocker cover - not because of the need to remove the inlet, but purely for comparison sake.

The last bit of shellac staining ont eh drivers side cover should also disappear if the CEM does 'it's thing'

What I want to see is how long it takes for the valvetrain components to really soften up and disperse.

The bottom line is thatt he CEM is doing what it said it would. And because we're testing this on a 350K+ engine that's never been pulled, I think it's testament to the strength of the product.

Stay tuned. I'll let it go for another few km and see how it pulls up on the passenger side.

[ozscott]

Great thread mate. I use the oil flush Brid sells and occasionally the fuel addjtive (Not often). Cheers

[DoubleChevron]

I'm thinking for the price of all the treatments and exotic oils .... I could have hunted around for another motor that runs nicely for a few hundred ... and thrown it in given a couiple of evenings labour

Maybe I just have high hopes though But I'm assuming anything that runs fine and compression tests ok from a damaged car would likely be ok into the future ( rebuilding costs a LOT of $$$$ if you go that route).

seeya,
Shane L.

[incisor]

i found the CEM stuff did wonders for my 300TDi defender and the wife's 30TDi disco

if your not in a position to tow heavy loads on a regular basis, then CEM is the next best thing.

sorts them out really well!

i did a flush and treatment on my turboed 4bd1 county and it made quite a difference but not as big a difference as it did to the 300TDi's.

[Mercguy]

I'm thinking for the price of all the treatments and exotic oils .... I could have hunted around for another motor that runs nicely for a few hundred ... and thrown it in given a couiple of evenings labour

Maybe I just have high hopes though But I'm assuming anything that runs fine and compression tests ok from a damaged car would likely be ok into the future ( rebuilding costs a LOT of $$$$ if you go that route).

seeya,
Shane L.

Shane,

I understand your logic, but there are two important caveats I stated at the outset.

I'm doing this as an experiment.
I don't care if it stuffs up the engine or not.

Given this is simply an additive, or rather pair of additives which I am assessing, the main objectionable inference seems to be cost -

So, just as an FYI, the cost was $350 for 1 litre of the flush concentrate plus 1 litre of the FTC decarbonizer. When the flush is dosed according to the "heavily soiled" specifications (12.5ml/L), it equates to approximately 16 oil changes worth of flushing. By comparison, the Nulon product which was my previous 'go-to' priced @ 12.99 roughly required 2 full bottles to one sump for 'normal', and double that for "heavily soiled" (approx $52). so You can already see the cost advantages, not to mention the volume of additive.
In a 'maintenance' application, it's 2.5ml/L of oil, so once I am satisfied with the level of "filthiness" it will be a very long time before a 1L supply is exhausted. compare that to the 2 bottles of nulon required to do the same job at every oil change.

The FTC decarbonizer is an upper cyl combustion chamber cleaner - it's designed to deglaze the upper cyl area - remove carbon deposits on valve seats, piston crowns and bore area. it's an 800:1 ratio (800L fuel) for the initial treatment (20hrs) and then half that (1600:1) as a maintenance item.

I get that some people do not bother with 'injector cleaners' etc. I also understand that not many people have seen what the insides of their DPF-equipped Euro4+ diesel engines look like on the EGR-inlet side or in the turbo compressor housing, with just normal service light interval oil changes.

It's no different to this v8, which for the 11 years prior to my ownership was religously serviced every 5000km by the p.o. and Penrite oil went in.
Regardless, it doesn't matter how the engine ended up with so much carbon. The point is, it's there.

I don't want to touch this engines internals. I can't be botherd replacing the worn cam, or anything... So, as an experiment I'm undertaking this task as an evaluation as to whether or not I'll use it in future on other engines, both diesel and petrol. It's a 3.9L sacrificial lamb.

But, my confidence in the product is being established. I've done one 2500km interval with a full heavy-soil dose (not a 30 minute idle) and the results so far have been quite impressive. Not spectacular - not miraculous, but certainly far exceeding my expectations and for less cost

Do I need to do another "heavy soil" treatment??? according to my pulling of the rocker cover, the answer is a clear yes, and what's even more satisfying, is knowing that what is there is no longer hard ****ty carbon, it's nice and soft, and will gradually dissipate, just like the manufacturer stated.

Further to that, the engine's no longer blowing smoke. I reported blowby prior to using the product. That's clearly no longer the case, as there is no smoke on cold starts, no smoke on full-throttle acceleration and no smoke on overrun/decel.

When the FTC is added to the fuel at every 2nd tank (done for eval reasons) there is clear evidence of carbon soot being ejected. When a full throttle jab is given under test, there is a soot mark left on the ground. It's far less apparent when the FTC is not used. Given we're talking about 354K on an engine, one has to expect some kind of crap coming out the tailpipe, but this is clean as you'd expect from a rich-fueled engine.

So the cost comparisons are there only against someone who would prefer to buy a used engine, and drop it in. I don't have the time or space, and certainly wouldn't pay someone else to bother with swapping out a non-rebuilt engine with one that can be kept running for a small outlay.

The flip-side of this is simple.....
If the CEM does complete the task of removing all the upper valvetrain carbon, it has done this against all the specific information provided by the manufacturer - which means it performs better than stated.

The manufacturer claim is quite simple - the FOC product is designed to remove deposits on areas which receive a consistent running supply of oil.

Given that the product is an oil-additive and obviously the "mist" oil is not a flowing quantity, the softening of the hard carbon on the rocker cover and upper valvetrain far exceeds any claim - in fact the statement provided to me was that the product would likely not improve he condition in that area at all.

So my experiment is truly a test of effectiveness in an area where no guarantee is given.

What's the actual point of all of this???

Twofold.

1. can a rebuild be avoided on a high mileage engine, with a few hundred dollars of outlay and some time?
2. will the product extend the engines lifespan?

Here are some observations from my last 2500km.

1. after the first 500km, the engine got noisy - I expected this and understand engine noises, so I was not concerned.
2. The oil got black within the first week
3. I could have changed the oil, but decided to stick with my plan
4. the oil had not lost any lubricity or film strength.
5. the liqui-moly MoS2 was already being used and will continue to be, as it has provided excellent results on my other engines, and to me, is a known performer. it is there purely to minimize any wear.
6. After the draining of the oil, the new oil was still as clean as it was when I put it in, after a long drive. Normally this is not the case with any oil change, and some discolouration is to be expected after a long run.

I'm checking the oil every day, to note the colour change, since this flush.

As an experiment, I have no issues whatsoever with the cost outlay, or the findings so far. As I said at the outset, I don't care what the outcome is. At the same time, I have to say I am surprised a little that the results so far confirm that the manufacturers claims are accurate, or rather, have exceeded the claims. If they were otherwise I would have naturally said so.

It's certainly not a directly comparative statement to "find a used engine and just swap it" - because a used engine is an unknown. Not only that, it's highly likely that it is just as worn out as the one being pulled out.
So you end up with potentially another set of problems as well.

There are some things about used engine swaps which I don't necessarily agree with as well....

1. customer is being a cheapskate and doesn't understand the implications of a used swap versus a rebuild-
- possible cooling system issues
- doesn't replace ancillary parts which would ensure a degree of reliability: e.g. water pump, hoses, radiator flush, oil cooler etc.
- decision to re-use or use electrical parts from donor engine - e.g. injectors, sensors... what if the donor parts are not in a good serviceable condition?
2. Possibility of engine failure within short period of time as it's a used "unknown" and could have internal damage/issues which are not immediately apparent - i.e. stuff that a compression test doesn't reveal.Especially if you cannot see it running.
- slow leaks
- internal corrosion
- internal wear on cam/valvetrain
- bearing damage.

As you can see it's easy to buy a used engine and take the risk..... but is the cost outlay versus the risk is still in favour of a couple of engine flushes with 'nothing to lose'

I am fortunate that I am in a position where I have a replacement powerplant available and do not rely on this car as a primary means of transport.
If that was the case, I'd have pulled the top end off the engine ages ago or more likely I would have pulled the engine, and rebuilt it with a stroker crank, stepped liners, headwork and a decent cam.

Time will reveal whether or not this experiment delivers a positive outcome, or if I destroy the engine in the process. There is no 'means to an end' here.

So far, the expectations versus actual results are to the contrary - and the additives are exceeding claims and expectations, and there is an improvement in fuel economy, noticeable lack of blowby, especially on cold starts, a noticeable difference in the behaviour of the engines throttle response to inputs and it's also much quieter.
These are all positive differences and occurred within a single oil change and 2500km. I expected nothing, and have been pleased that the product actually does what it says it does.

So I'm just placing all the results here for others to see.

It may be enough evidence to assist someone in making a decision one way or the other, as to whether or not they try an additive, or consider the cost of a rebuild.
There's always the option of buying a used engine, swapping it over and running the flush as well.... it might be the most 'cost effective' strategy for someone with a totally trashed motor, but again, it's not the point of this experiment.

But let's leave this thread on a positive note:

So far, everything the manufacturer claims the product will do, has been met. In some areas it's exceeded the stated claim, e.g. in the rocker cover area and upper valvetrain not exposed to running oil.
The evidence is documented in photos, it's not altered and remains objective.

Like I said at the outset, I'm just blogging this here and the hope is people will see that for what it is, just a straight up experiment with documented results at each interval.

When it comes time for me to undertake my planned engine conversion, I may take some time to tear down this 3.9L V8 and inspect it for wear against the manufacturing tolerances. I think the results recorded will be the most telling as to whether or not the engine would continue to be serviceable, especially since the 'known condition' is that it can't possibly be any worse than it was before I started the experiment.

Whatever the findings, I'll continue to document it at each fluid service interval. Who knows, I may go too far on the loud pedal one day..... let's hope not.

Cheers,

[Classic88]

Thanks Mercguy. Very interesting. I will admit to having always been skeptical about fuel and oil additives which claim to clean and extend life but your ongoing review of the CEM products certainly suggests the opposite.

While my engine is a relative spring chicken at 160k kms, it seems like investing in a CEM product pack would be a relatively inexpensive way of at least buying a bit of peace of mind.

[cripesamighty]

"I found the CEM stuff did wonders for my 300TDi defender and the wife's 300TDi disco"

Hey Dave,

Which particular products did you use and what mileage is on the Deefer and Disco? I always did wonder how good these type of products were so now I have a better idea! My 300Tdi D1 has so far done around 240,000km's. Might have to try a bit of preventative maintenance.


Thanks,

Cripesamighty

[incisor]

The two the OP is using

The fender had about 275k on it when I sold it and the wife's disco is approaching 400k

To me the effectiveness was relative to how the vehicle is used

If you do lots of heavy lifting then the 300TDi runs well without the use of CEM

If it does very little heavy work then you will see a marked improvement without a doubt

I tried a few before the CEM and I found that they didn't come close

I will be buying some more in the next month or so as I use it in Madge as well these days...

I use a flash lube setup but run clean power thru it ..