Thread: 300tdi freezing snow start worries - usually starts first time fine, until below zero

Originally Posted by Bigbjorn

Go to a truck wrecker and get the ether cold start assembly from a Cummins. Plumb it into your LR intake manifold or between the air cleaner and manifold. The system is operated by a Bowden cable on the dash.

Better still. Avoid frozen starts totally. Go to Queensland for the winter.

Do NOT ever use ether on an engine with glow plugs. You will destroy the engine.

Originally Posted by Bigbjorn

Russians mix petrol in their distillate in their winters. My experience with cold weather starting was decades ago with heavy truck engines. Detroit two strokes always started easily even if almost worn out. Cummins NTC would NOT start on a cold Victorian morning without using the ether bottle. Cummins of this era came standard equipment with the ether cold starting system. Tells you something. The fueled up NTC400 and NTA420 Cummins would cough and splutter, run on one or two cylinders and vibrate like buggery as individual cylinders started then stopped, blew smoke rings, until the engine got a bit of heat into it. Get it started and let it idle whilst one had a hot coffee before driving off.

Going back further to the days of pre-chamber diesels and the likes of the Lanz Bulldog tractors, it was common practice by cockies to use fire to get a reluctant tractor started. Wire an old shirt or singlet on to a piece of wood, dip in in the diesel tank, set it alight, and hold it over the air intake whilst cranking. A blow torch or oxy-acetylene flame was sometimes employed particularly to the pre-heat chambers on a Bulldog.

In my heavy equipment days my then employers represented a US maker of quality and innovative small earthmoving & agricultural equipment. All their equipment had as standard a 110 volt block heater to keep the engine warm overnight in a mid-west winter.

The hot bowl engine of which the most widely known as what powered Lanz Bulldogs is slightly different principle from other diesels. There also were single cylinder two stroke hot bowl engines in tractors made by Field Marshall in UK, A H McDonald in Melbourne and others. In these, the lower side of the cylinder head is a hot bowl of cast iron which is not cooled. Fuel is in injected onto this. When hot bowl engines was a commonly used, fuel for them was heavier and blacker than ordinary diesel fuel which was then often described as "distillate" I recall drums of it labelled as "Diesel Fuel" A sawmill in Barmah Forest which operated from 1950 to 1990 was mainly powered by a 65 hp McDonald ML. Apparently for several years owner had an arrangement with a fuel company to keep supplying fuel for it but eventually had to change the injector so it would run on ordinary diesel. I have seen a report that Lanz in Germany had some set up to run on tar. Then another that in North Africa during WW2 some Allied forces scored a Lanz Bulldog tractor left by retreating Germans. Had no proper fuel but plenty of rancid butter and apparently successfully ran it on this.

The German army also had Lanz Bulldog tractors when they got stuck in Russia in a Russian winter. To start them was basically the same technique as in very hot climates. ie Heat the hot bowl to red hot with blowlamp, pump some fuel in with hand primer which operates injector plunger and swing engine to bounce it off compression. Lubrication in these motors was "Dry sump". Oil from oil tank was first pumped through bearings and then to cylinder walls, where it was burnt. No oil changes!. However, in days before multi viscosity oils, was a problem that in very cold climates, cold oil could make engine difficult to turn when trying to start it. Solution to this was a while before stopping engine and leaving it overnight, to run oil mixed with petrol in its lubrication system. Worth noting that Germans in Russian winter apparently largely started their Lanz Bulldogs first in mornings. Then used them to tow start other vehicles.

Originally Posted by mox

The hot bowl engine of which the most widely known as what powered Lanz Bulldogs is slightly different principle from other diesels. There also were single cylinder two stroke hot bowl engines in tractors made by Field Marshall in UK, A H McDonald in Melbourne and others. In these, the lower side of the cylinder head is a hot bowl of cast iron which is not cooled. Fuel is in injected onto this. When hot bowl engines was a commonly used, fuel for them was heavier and blacker than ordinary diesel fuel which was then often described as "distillate" I recall drums of it labelled as "Diesel Fuel" A sawmill in Barmah Forest which operated from 1950 to 1990 was mainly powered by a 65 hp McDonald ML. Apparently for several years owner had an arrangement with a fuel company to keep supplying fuel for it but eventually had to change the injector so it would run on ordinary diesel. I have seen a report that Lanz in Germany had some set up to run on tar. Then another that in North Africa during WW2 some Allied forces scored a Lanz Bulldog tractor left by retreating Germans. Had no proper fuel but plenty of rancid butter and apparently successfully ran it on this.

The German army also had Lanz Bulldog tractors when they got stuck in Russia in a Russian winter. To start them was basically the same technique as in very hot climates. ie Heat the hot bowl to red hot with blowlamp, pump some fuel in with hand primer which operates injector plunger and swing engine to bounce it off compression. Lubrication in these motors was "Dry sump". Oil from oil tank was first pumped through bearings and then to cylinder walls, where it was burnt. No oil changes!. However, in days before multi viscosity oils, was a problem that in very cold climates, cold oil could make engine difficult to turn when trying to start it. Solution to this was a while before stopping engine and leaving it overnight, to run oil mixed with petrol in its lubrication system. Worth noting that Germans in Russian winter apparently largely started their Lanz Bulldogs first in mornings. Then used them to tow start other vehicles.

Not unknown in parts of Oz that had bitter frosty mornings like Riverland-Sunraysia for a cocky to leave his Lanz Bulldog turned down to low idle all night rather than go through the drama of a difficult cold start in the morning involving blow torches or fires of Mallee root under the engine. They could chug-a-lug at 120 rpm and if the ground was soft the shaking would make a depression in the soil.

Originally Posted by Gillie

. This is the additive that everyone seems to use.

Should be able to buy this from servos up in the high country yeah? Or should I just make a stop into Repco/other generic auto shop before going?

Someone on snow threads said that the alpine diesel just isn't what it used to be, some of it is okay but to be sure even if you fill up most of a tank with Alpine Diesel chuck a single dose of additive in there too...my truck will be parked up for three days straight in the snow so it'll get cold, I don't want to be stuck on Monday arvo when I go to come home.

The hot bowl engine of which the most widely known as what powered Lanz Bulldogs is slightly different principle from other diesels. There also were single cylinder two stroke hot bowl engines in tractors made by Field Marshall in UK, A H McDonald in Melbourne and others.

Wandering way off topic with this, but just out of interest for the younger members, these bloody things would run in either direction. Rock it over just at the wrong moment and it would start for sure and run "backwards"!

Originally Posted by Red90

Assuming you have the correct fuel and working glow plugs it should start fine to -40. -6 is nothing. Starts in -30 and lower are normal around here.

The key to cold starting is good timing. If it is retarded a bit, it won’t start. Most Diesel engines have a cold start advance but Land Rovers decided not to fit one. It is this important that the timing is on spec or a bit advanced.

Use a winter diesel fuel conditioner if you are unsure of the fuel.

I reckon you've nailed it that the timing is slightly retarded.
It'll be the difference between the timing pin loose and tight, that's all it'd take.
Ideally use a dial guage measuring plunger lift on the pump. Can't recall what JC recommends?

Originally Posted by Old Farang

Wandering way off topic with this, but just out of interest for the younger members, these bloody things would run in either direction. Rock it over just at the wrong moment and it would start for sure and run "backwards"!

I know BSA Bantams could be bump started backwards. As an apprentice we rotten teenagers did it to a TAFE teachers bike and left it idling outside the workshop. Teacher fumed and fulminated about interfering with his bike, threw the leg over it and took off - backwards.