D2a TD5 Need advice, when should I replace my head?

Kelvo is quite correct and only reinforces my comments. Get a second opinion, at 155K it is unusual for the head to be unserviceable on a D2a. When I replaced mine with a Turner head at 370K it was a decision made on economic grounds with regard to the K's. If you do end up getting a Turner head also get the TD5 Cylinder Head fitting Kit (which includes all you need) @150 pounds and front and rear camshaft seals. Also bear in mind that the head does not include a camshaft, so along with the injectors you will also need to reuse the cam. Also Islandnomad I drove mine for only a month with the issues of diesel in the coolant and bit the bullet after wasting money on unnecessary band aid fixes.

Nick

Kelvo,
"The head does not come off for the injector seals or washers to be replaced. The new bolts would have been the ones holding the injectors in place."
Thanks Kelvo shows my understanding, I'm off thinking I should do the head bolts too as a fix, jeez.


Kelvo and Nick,
I appreciate what your saying about a second opinion and I spoke to that mechanic yesterday and told him the problem I have, and he started to talk about a new head. A Master on here, Stealth, replaced his head at 180,000kms with the same problem.




What I'm asking is as follows:

1. if you assume that my head is porous, hasn't it been porous from day 1, so haven't I had diesel in the oil from day 1?
2. My mechanic isn't suggesting I replace the head yet, his fix is to keep a special oil up to it, that slows the injectors wearing due to exposure to the diesel in the oil. He has however warned about potential damage to the Turbo. I was told by the other mechanic yesterday that they can run on, rev up, without any throttle and destroy the motor. Not a situation I want to get into obviously. Is my mechanics proposed way of dealing with this issue, the right approach?
3. At what point in the life of the vehicle should I replace the head? Nick says around 300,000km. I am quite happy to not do it at all. But this is my last car hopefully, I want to keep it, its perfect for me. But I don't want to damage the Turbo and I certainly don't want the motor to blow up. Strangy a member on here early on said with any diesel in my oil I should replace the head straight away. I also worry about this motors reliability, due to this, and have limited my 4wding as a result.
4. Stealth a member on here on his post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ml#post1541752 had roarin8 comment that "The crack was tiny but we did find it and our machine shop fitted a sleeve to the injector port in the head.(The head had to come off again much to the customers dismay) we put it back together and as far as i know it's still going fine. i have noticed a lot on these heads that there are wear marks usually on the rear side of each injector port where the injectors look like they have been rubbing. and yeah these bottom ends will go forever if they don't loose oil pressure from the oil pump bolt falling off!!" Is this sleeve a good idea rather than a new head? I don't know whether I have a crack or whether it is simply porosity as my head hasn't been off I don't think. Oil pump bolt falling off, should I look out for this issue too?
5. Should I decide to do the head, how many hours labour is involved in replacing the head? Should I supply the head and installs kits from Turners and get the mechanic to quote a fixed price for labour?
6. Should I as someone suggested get the oil tested after each service to determine the % oil diesel mixture and keep an eye on the problem this way?
7. I think my mechanic said that if I replaced the oil very regularly ie every 2500kms then the issue may not be a problem as it takes time for enough diesel to get into the oil to start to do any damage. I started to do this every 2500km but got lazy about it and stretched it out to 5000km. Is this the best way to go and not do the head at all?

SORRY I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS BTW!

Nick,
"The rest of the motor is still good at 410K, does not use oil and the oil is still clean at oil change every 10K". I just checked I haven't had a service for 10,000km the oil level is 5mm below the "Full" mark and is absolutely black! Just booked it in for a service next Tuesday. I have a leak too, not sure where, motor or elsewhere, makes a bit of a mess on the concrete, I was told that all LR's leak and not to worry about it?

OK Islandnomad I'll try and answer your questions if I can.

1. I can't answer this one.
2. No if there is a problem with the head that only changing the oil every 2500k's will manage get the head fixed or changed sooner rather than later.
3. I don't suggest a head should be replaced at 300,000K's, only if it is to fix a problem where repair may not be the best option after taking all things into account.
4. I would have your mechanic take the head off and fully diagnose the problem and then make informed decisions. Your Oil Pump Bolt should be OK as it is a later model.
5. I don't know how long a mechanic would take as the way I work and attention to detail would be quite different plus I probably drink a lot more cups of tea. But if you do get a Turner Head and kit get a fixed labour price you should save money. So yes.
6. No just do it once a then fix the problem if necessary.
7. No get the head fixed or replaced.

My advice would be to get the head off diagnose the problem and if a new head is required get the Turner Head and you won't have any regrets.

Pippin,
OK then I'm getting the car serviced next week. I'm going to take an oil sample and get it tested (I can't afford to lift the head at the moment as it sounds like it's 16 hrs work). I'm also going to get KHOR to find the receipt for the investigation done a couple of years ago, to determine exactly what they did/tested.


I now have a plan of attack that seems reasonable. Thankyou!
regards
David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandnomad

1. if you assume that my head is porous, hasn't it been porous from day 1, so haven't I had diesel in the oil from day 1? Very unlikely to have been leaking from day 1.
2. My mechanic isn't suggesting I replace the head yet, his fix is to keep a special oil up to it, that slows the injectors wearing due to exposure to the diesel in the oil. He has however warned about potential damage to the Turbo. I was told by the other mechanic yesterday that they can run on, rev up, without any throttle and destroy the motor. Not a situation I want to get into obviously. Is my mechanics proposed way of dealing with this issue, the right approach?I have never heard of any special oil to solve dilution with diesel. Plus this has nothing to do with injector wear, diluted oil will affect every moving part that is lubricated by this oil.
3. At what point in the life of the vehicle should I replace the head? Nick says around 300,000km. I am quite happy to not do it at all. But this is my last car hopefully, I want to keep it, its perfect for me. But I don't want to damage the Turbo and I certainly don't want the motor to blow up. Strangy a member on here early on said with any diesel in my oil I should replace the head straight away. I also worry about this motors reliability, due to this, and have limited my 4wding as a result.I would only replace the head when it has 100% failed. I think Strangy meant you should replace the head IF that is what had failed and was causing the diesel in the oil. Leaking injector washer cause diesel in the oil, this is fixed by replacing the injector washers (and o rings)
4. Stealth a member on here on his post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ml#post1541752 had roarin8 comment that "The crack was tiny but we did find it and our machine shop fitted a sleeve to the injector port in the head.(The head had to come off again much to the customers dismay) we put it back together and as far as i know it's still going fine. i have noticed a lot on these heads that there are wear marks usually on the rear side of each injector port where the injectors look like they have been rubbing. and yeah these bottom ends will go forever if they don't loose oil pressure from the oil pump bolt falling off!!" Is this sleeve a good idea rather than a new head? I don't know whether I have a crack or whether it is simply porosity as my head hasn't been off I don't think. Oil pump bolt falling off, should I look out for this issue too?First part no idea. Oil pump bolt could be an issue, the only way to be 100% certain it is ok is to replace this bolt. My 2003 D2a had a bolt with loctite on when I checked, it now has a new loctited bolt fitted.
5. Should I decide to do the head, how many hours labour is involved in replacing the head? Should I supply the head and installs kits from Turners and get the mechanic to quote a fixed price for labour?How long will it take? No idea, if mine ever needs doing I will be doing it myself
6. Should I as someone suggested get the oil tested after each service to determine the % oil diesel mixture and keep an eye on the problem this way?Yes, but if any dilutation is happening it is bad, so the true cause must be fixed.
7. I think my mechanic said that if I replaced the oil very regularly ie every 2500kms then the issue may not be a problem as it takes time for enough diesel to get into the oil to start to do any damage. I started to do this every 2500km but got lazy about it and stretched it out to 5000km. Is this the best way to go and not do the head at all?If as you said you want to keep the Disco fix the problem, getting lazy by extending the oil changes without knowing the actual dilution of the oil is false economy.

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My answers in red.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandnomad

Pippin,
OK then I'm getting the car serviced next week. I'm going to take an oil sample and get it tested (I can't afford to lift the head at the moment as it sounds like it's 16 hrs work). I'm also going to get KHOR to find the receipt for the investigation done a couple of years ago, to determine exactly what they did/tested.


I now have a plan of attack that seems reasonable. Thankyou!
regards
David

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Also check the oil level every week, with the engine cold and parked on level ground eg first thing in the morning. With a TD5 in good condition you should see no change in the oil level and certainly not rise.

Let us know what you find.

Kelvo my response in blue,


2. My mechanic isn't suggesting I replace the head yet, his fix is to keep a special oil up to it, that slows the injectors wearing due to exposure to the diesel in the oil. He has however warned about potential damage to the Turbo. I was told by the other mechanic yesterday that they can run on, rev up, without any throttle and destroy the motor. Not a situation I want to get into obviously. Is my mechanics proposed way of dealing with this issue, the right approach?I have never heard of any special oil to solve dilution with diesel. Plus this has nothing to do with injector wear, diluted oil will affect every moving part that is lubricated by this oil. To be fair to my mechanic, he probably would replace the head I guess, its me telling him that I can't afford the $7k its going to cost. What he's trying to do is keep the car going as long as he can and as cheaply as possible, I imagine. I don't think the "special oil" is to fix the dilution with diesel, its to minimise wear on the injectors (I think), his solution to the dilution is the very frequent oil changes to minimise wear (if I can afford it).


3. At what point in the life of the vehicle should I replace the head? Nick says around 300,000km. I am quite happy to not do it at all. But this is my last car hopefully, I want to keep it, its perfect for me. But I don't want to damage the Turbo and I certainly don't want the motor to blow up. Strangy a member on here early on said with any diesel in my oil I should replace the head straight away. I also worry about this motors reliability, due to this, and have limited my 4wding as a result. I would only replace the head when it has 100% failed. I think Strangy meant you should replace the head IF that is what had failed and was causing the diesel in the oil. Leaking injector washer cause diesel in the oil, this is fixed by replacing the injector washers (and o rings). I already have replaced injector washers and o rings about two years ago, he then tested the head somehow and it was still leaking at no, 3 and 4 cylinder. That's my understanding, is that what you call 100% failed then? What happens when a head really fails you get a lot of smoke don't you or is that a head gasket? My understanding is that this head is either porous (a bad casting) or has a tiny crack (I got that from what I've seen on here), I don't think my head has been off. Its a typical problem with the TD5 apparently.


4.Stealth a member on here on his post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ml#post1541752 had roarin8 comment that "The crack was tiny but we did find it and our machine shop fitted a sleeve to the injector port in the head.(The head had to come off again much to the customers dismay) we put it back together and as far as i know it's still going fine. i have noticed a lot on these heads that there are wear marks usually on the rear side of each injector port where the injectors look like they have been rubbing. and yeah these bottom ends will go forever if they don't loose oil pressure from the oil pump bolt falling off!!" Is this sleeve a good idea rather than a new head? I don't know whether I have a crack or whether it is simply porosity as my head hasn't been off I don't think. Oil pump bolt falling off, should I look out for this issue too?First part no idea. Oil pump bolt could be an issue, the only way to be 100% certain it is ok is to replace this bolt. My 2003 D2a had a bolt with loctite on when I checked, it now has a new loctited bolt fitted. I'll get mechanic to check the oil pump bolt too. So no ones heard of sleeving the port to stop the leak?


6. Should I as someone suggested get the oil tested after each service to determine the % oil diesel mixture and keep an eye on the problem this way?Yes, but if any dilutation is happening it is bad, so the true cause must be fixed. Apparently you can smell the diesel in the oil when they change the oil, may not need the oil test then.


7. I think my mechanic said that if I replaced the oil very regularly ie every 2500kms then the issue may not be a problem as it takes time for enough diesel to get into the oil to start to do any damage. I started to do this every 2500km but got lazy about it and stretched it out to 5000km. Is this the best way to go and not do the head at all?If as you said you want to keep the Disco fix the problem, getting lazy by extending the oil changes without knowing the actual dilution of the oil is false economy. Not lazy really mate, been crook, can't work, no dough. Sounds to me like it is going to have to be done. I respect this mechanic and his son, they are Landrover Specialists (Knights House of Rover) and they are excellent and have serviced all of my 6 Landrovers to date. I spoke to the other mechanic re 2nd opinion M.R. Automotive, he also has an excellent reputation as a Landrover specialist in Brisbane too, a couple of days ago, and he said if I already have replaced injector washers and o rings and bolts and it hasn't fixed the dilution, then it needs a new head, common problem unfortunately.

Simonmelb,


"Also check the oil level every week, with the engine cold and parked on level ground eg first thing in the morning. With a TD5 in good condition you should see no change in the oil level and certainly not rise.

Let us know what you find. "


Ok will do, I'll check the oil weekly and keep an eye on the level and colour and smell maybe. I had a look yesterday and it was 5mm below full and really dirty and black. Maybe I have an engine oil leak too? Haven't done a service for 10,000kms, sooo broke at the moment, anyway!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandnomad

What I'm asking is as follows:

1. if you assume that my head is porous, hasn't it been porous from day 1, so haven't I had diesel in the oil from day 1? Yes, but may not reveal itself for some time. Numerous heating and cooling cycles can then cause any porous area to crack over time. I am not convinced that porosity is the correct definition for all fuel in the oil events, as cracks can form in places/galleries not visible to usual/common method of crack testing procedures available at most workshops. I think "porosity" has become a generic description.
2. My mechanic isn't suggesting I replace the head yet, his fix is to keep a special oil up to it, that slows the injectors wearing due to exposure to the diesel in the oil. He has however warned about potential damage to the Turbo. I was told by the other mechanic yesterday that they can run on, rev up, without any throttle and destroy the motor. Not a situation I want to get into obviously. Is my mechanics proposed way of dealing with this issue, the right approach? IMO - no, for issues mentioned earlier.
3. At what point in the life of the vehicle should I replace the head? Nick says around 300,000km.Only reason to replace a head is if it has been damaged. Excluding an issue such as yours or an overheat, a head can last the life of the engine. I am quite happy to not do it at all. But this is my last car hopefully, I want to keep it, its perfect for me. But I don't want to damage the Turbo and I certainly don't want the motor to blow up. Strangy a member on here early on said with any diesel in my oil I should replace the head straight away. I also worry about this motors reliability, due to this, and have limited my 4wding as a result.
4. Stealth a member on here on his post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ml#post1541752 had roarin8 comment that "The crack was tiny but we did find it and our machine shop fitted a sleeve to the injector port in the head.(The head had to come off again much to the customers dismay) we put it back together and as far as i know it's still going fine. i have noticed a lot on these heads that there are wear marks usually on the rear side of each injector port where the injectors look like they have been rubbing. and yeah these bottom ends will go forever if they don't loose oil pressure from the oil pump bolt falling off!!" Is this sleeve a good idea rather than a new head? I don't know whether I have a crack or whether it is simply porosity as my head hasn't been off I don't think. Oil pump bolt falling off, should I look out for this issue too?The oil pump bolt is worth checking. It takes about an hour to check in addition to a normal oil change. I haven't heard about the sleeve fix. Repair viability is a case by case scenario and could be a great option or cost more than what its worth. i.e hrly rate to find the crack, attempted repair then find it didn't work, strip and replace anyway. I had a crack in the water jacket at number 1 inlet runner. I could have had it welded and refitted the head but the cost and uncertainty of the life of the head made a replacement a simple option. Most workshops want you to leave happy and not come back. Thats why most recommend replacement.
5. Should I decide to do the head, how many hours labour is involved in replacing the head? Should I supply the head and installs kits from Turners and get the mechanic to quote a fixed price for labour? I have changed a TD5 head in a day by myself at home, a proper workshop should easily better me. I cant fathom $7k for this job. The Turner head and fitting kit is currently $2211 AUD. Even at $2500 landed, charging $4500 for a days labour to fit + oil and filters is outrageous. At $100hr plus consumables it shouldn't be more than $1500 labour. You may find a few members near you are willing to help do it yourself. I understand when you are tight on money everything like this can feel overwhelming.
6. Should I as someone suggested get the oil tested after each service to determine the % oil diesel mixture and keep an eye on the problem this way? IMO it wont provide much information to help manage after the initial information.
7. I think my mechanic said that if I replaced the oil very regularly ie every 2500kms then the issue may not be a problem as it takes time for enough diesel to get into the oil to start to do any damage. I started to do this every 2500km but got lazy about it and stretched it out to 5000km. Is this the best way to go and not do the head at all? If you are paying for someone to do this for you, it will soon have paid for the job to be fixed properly and you can be out enjoying and trusting your vehicle. Oil isn't cheap and changing it 4 times more than necessary it adds up. That's around $400 extra in oil changes over 10000km
   
   
   SORRY I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS BTW!Do not apologise for questions, the more you know the better you are equipped to sort it.

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My extra 2 cents :)