Thread: Starting issue

Originally Posted by 350RRC

If the switch is anything like those in RRC's they end up with all sorts of weird symptoms when the copper dimples inside get worn, even temp related IME.

I have had similar problems with a Subaru Forrester's window switch. I pulled it apart, cleaned the little contacts and reassembled - worked perfectly again.

This could be worth investigating, cheers!

Originally Posted by AK83

I hate electrics! I hate LR electrics even more so!!

The way I understand troubleshooting: when you checked for power, did you connect multimeter (or test light) at both power AND earth at the plug? Or did you check the earth by grounding somewhere metallic?

So if you connected meter to both power and earth at the plug, then you're checking both power and earth(points) at the same time. Good test to do.
If you connect power at the plug and earth at the chassis, this way you only tested the power circuit, not the return earth line.

If you had a earth failure point somewhere doing both test types confirms or eliminates this. If you had a earth failure, and the positive rail was OK, then if you ran a wire from chassis to the earth pin on the plug, you can solve the issue.
ie. you had an earthing issue.

If you tested for power only(which most folks do) by earthing the multimeter to the chassis, then you have a power rail issue(ie. fuse/relay/etc) type problem .. this simplifies what to concentrate on, ie. your issues is 99.9% related to the positive side.
This doesn't mean that you don't have a earth issue tho.. It could be a compounding problem.

This is why in my reply I said get a battery to the rear, couple of wires(say 10 amp types or whatever) .. I don't think you need a fused wire, but if you have, then better. Just connect battery to pump terminals, not too long, just a few seconds is enough. Do this a few times to confirm that the pump accepts power and operates each time. Could have been a electrical issue within the pump .. not just a failed pump.
But it seems you have confirmed that power to the plug is the issue. Just work out if it's pos or earth.

Oh and don't be surprised if the underside of the main fuse box(engine bay one) could be corroded/dirty/loose/etc too .. so could simply be a connection issue at the source to the wire.
D2's also seem to be prone to interior fuse box issues too. so pull it down, inspect it, I reckon give the back side of it a spray too.
(the pass fuse box doesn't seem to have any role in the fuel pump .. that was just a general tip to help keep future electrical gremlins at bay)

if you don't know the history of the vehicle I'd do a bit of a WD-refresh. pull relays and fuses and spray a WD or lube type or contact cleaner spray into and down the receptacles.

Cheers mate, glad I'm on the same page re electrics haha

I checked the power to the pump at the plug using the WP wire and B wire (so power and earth at the plug). I will have to wait until it fails again (usually after standing overnight) to test using another earth and the WP power at the plug.

I'll grab another battery and try giving power to the pump, however, I agree I feel the pump is no longer the issue as with the test the other morning there was no voltage going to the pump until a few cycles of the ignition switch. But as you said, I can at least eliminate the pump finally.

Is the engine bay fuse box relatively easy to remove to clean? I may as well have a look at the internal fusebox and give it a tidy up if needed too.

Had the D2a for 3 years and this is the first time of electrics playing up, so I may aswell give it a good spray with contact cleaner.

Thanks heaps for you help mate! Few more jobs to do

Originally Posted by Keegan

I would do the seals and orings on the injectors. Especially if fuel pump sounds like its gurgling.

Rebuilt the engine not long ago and I am sure they were replaced with the new AMC head.

I feel with the assistance of the forum here we have nearly certainly identified a power/relay/ground issue rather than mechanical, however, if I still can't sort it out I'll go ahead and replace the seals, o rings and the injector harness (I just did the rocker gasket a couple months back too )

So this morning with the wiper relay switched with the fuel pump relay, it clicked and primed immediately on first turn of the ignition.

I was not able to then test the relay points as it was working.

Interestingly enough, I felt I had changed the relays to test prior, but this is when I got home, and from the last few days it has been proven it has been working up until the following morning.. so that makes sense.

I'll swap the relays at the LR shop this arvo and get the right ones and then swap them and see how it goes.

When/if it fails again, I'll go ahead and check the power to the pump with the negative earthed to the chassis/another ground.

I'll also check with another power source to see if the pumps working, although I am confident it is not the pump causing the issue.

Finally, I'll look to remove the fusebox in the weekend and give it a really good clean and check all wire contacts.

I'll pull the ECU out and check the ground cable and also if there is any oil in the plug (although I checked the same time as rocker gasket so doubtful, but hey - Land Rover Things).

Again, I really appreciate the help by everyone here!

Originally Posted by getLuke

....

Had the D2a for 3 years and this is the first time of electrics playing up, so I may aswell give it a good spray with contact cleaner.

....

Disclaimer here, there can be some minor difference between D2 and D2a electrics, generally the same, but if someone says this, and you find that, we've discovered another! So I can only offer what I know .. no guarantee it's the same in the D2a.

clean fuse boxes is not hard, but I wouldn't call it 'easy'.
The cables can be stiff to flex them up ... maybe every vehicle is a bit different due to use and age.
ps here. I just use INOX for it .. seems to work fine on rusted up lighting sockets.. so I guess should be fine for fuse/relay connections that already seem to work OK enough.

Quick back story: 'my' Td5 is my brothers(but it's with my most of the time). got it some time back and had starting issues(but running issues too). I'm not a mech, but I've done and fixed enough to be reminded of what issues relates to what component, and I was positive that issue must have been fuel pump or reg. Changed pump, small difference. Changed reg, no difference, but the intermittency was less. But when it resurfaced, it seemed worse than before.
Everyone here recommended injector seals, and doing the loom just in case and for the obvious reasons that you're already opened up in there ... silly not too.
Anyhow, did seals, and presto! good as new, until the waste gate modulator failed, and it felt like it all started again. Quick and easy bypass, but again fixed and shes run fine ever since(now about 4 years).
But there were(and are) small annoyances with some electrics .. gremlins. In the course of doing other niggle detail stuff(cosmetics, undoing stuff ups, etc) weird things popped up. Did a window, and found a ton of silt in the bottom of the door. ??
Did some ecu stuff, and found anomalies in the VIN numbers. Did another door and found more silt .. then things started to add up. A previous owner had gone all sub commander on it at some point and for sure drowned in it muddy water. Must have got stuck for a bit. So I checked all doors and yep, everywhere was this very fine powdery silt. ECU/ BCU and body VINS all different, so they much have killed the electrics when drowned. I cleaned up the silt as far as I could reach(tons of the stuff!). Then went through and clean sprayed the fuse boxes, underneath and then pull relays and spray .. and rinse and repeat. I have contact cleaner, but there wasn't any rust, in fact they looked clean (enough) .. just to be sure to be sure.

The last electrical gremlin, maybe not related to any of this, are the wipers. They have this strange delay when you want them on. Flip the switch and ......... oh! they decided that it's time to wake up. They work perfectly other than this yawwwny delay .. sometimes!
Same with the wash/wipe action too. They work, so I aint touching nothing(until it's needed to be fondled with).

This is why I suggested that previous unknown owner actions could be at play here.

As an example of how this 'could' play out for 'ya. A previous owner may have been working on another part of the vehicle and inadvertently snagged the WP(white with purple tracer) wire somewhere that runs down the body. Lets say it got cut, and they thought good idea to fix this faux pas would be an under rated spade plug set. May not be rated for 25amps .. so connection is dodgy.

Get a feel for weirdo previous owner work that appears to have been done.

So back to your issue, the other thing to look for is in the engine bay. At the fuse box, between the fuse box and the coolant expansion tank is a black plug. How this plug is set up depends on if you have SLS(air suspension) down back.
If rear coils, this black plug will only have a WP wire.. quick thick(3.0mm) coming out of it. If SLS, then you will have a WB wire coming out of it too. it's still the same twin point plug, just either one or the two wires. It's obvious when you see it, the thickness of the WP wire is the standout about it compared to the rest of the loom in this area. There will be a grey multi plug too .. much thinner wires.
Expansion tank is easy to remove. if you never done it, you just pull on the rear side of it(the cap end) lift and forward and it unclips(two tandem clips once it's up) .. then you need to pull up and backwards a bit to unkook it from the front side too(and manouvre the hose on the RHS away from the electric retaining bracket. Do this will reveal the black plug, with WP wire that goes back to the pump to give you your 12v. There should be a very short lead of wire from the fuse box, and the other side of the plug will go down into the loom(to the pump). If you find it's a positive rail issue, check for power here too, at the shorter fly lead side of the plug halves. also check the plug insides.. no rust/dust/mangled pins/etc. cleaning it out won't hurt it either.
This short fly lead is connected under the fuse box by another plug in connector(same 3.0mm WP wire to it, so it will be obvious. Also check this connector/pin/wire for power if you find that power(ie. not earth) is the issue.

So how to narrow down the locations of electrical issues. You already found that at some point you had no 12v at the pump plug end, if you find the same issue via chassis earthing too, then lets assume it is power(12v) problem, so no power at the plug at the pump. Now find the next connector in the path(that black one near the fuse box) is there power there? if not, then check for power at the pin on the fuse box connector point too .. etc.

Originally Posted by AK83

Disclaimer here, there can be some minor difference between D2 and D2a electrics, generally the same, but if someone says this, and you find that, we've discovered another! So I can only offer what I know .. no guarantee it's the same in the D2a.

clean fuse boxes is not hard, but I wouldn't call it 'easy'.
The cables can be stiff to flex them up ... maybe every vehicle is a bit different due to use and age.
ps here. I just use INOX for it .. seems to work fine on rusted up lighting sockets.. so I guess should be fine for fuse/relay connections that already seem to work OK enough.

Quick back story: 'my' Td5 is my brothers(but it's with my most of the time). got it some time back and had starting issues(but running issues too). I'm not a mech, but I've done and fixed enough to be reminded of what issues relates to what component, and I was positive that issue must have been fuel pump or reg. Changed pump, small difference. Changed reg, no difference, but the intermittency was less. But when it resurfaced, it seemed worse than before.
Everyone here recommended injector seals, and doing the loom just in case and for the obvious reasons that you're already opened up in there ... silly not too.
Anyhow, did seals, and presto! good as new, until the waste gate modulator failed, and it felt like it all started again. Quick and easy bypass, but again fixed and shes run fine ever since(now about 4 years).
But there were(and are) small annoyances with some electrics .. gremlins. In the course of doing other niggle detail stuff(cosmetics, undoing stuff ups, etc) weird things popped up. Did a window, and found a ton of silt in the bottom of the door. ??
Did some ecu stuff, and found anomalies in the VIN numbers. Did another door and found more silt .. then things started to add up. A previous owner had gone all sub commander on it at some point and for sure drowned in it muddy water. Must have got stuck for a bit. So I checked all doors and yep, everywhere was this very fine powdery silt. ECU/ BCU and body VINS all different, so they much have killed the electrics when drowned. I cleaned up the silt as far as I could reach(tons of the stuff!). Then went through and clean sprayed the fuse boxes, underneath and then pull relays and spray .. and rinse and repeat. I have contact cleaner, but there wasn't any rust, in fact they looked clean (enough) .. just to be sure to be sure.

The last electrical gremlin, maybe not related to any of this, are the wipers. They have this strange delay when you want them on. Flip the switch and ......... oh! they decided that it's time to wake up. They work perfectly other than this yawwwny delay .. sometimes!
Same with the wash/wipe action too. They work, so I aint touching nothing(until it's needed to be fondled with).

This is why I suggested that previous unknown owner actions could be at play here.

As an example of how this 'could' play out for 'ya. A previous owner may have been working on another part of the vehicle and inadvertently snagged the WP(white with purple tracer) wire somewhere that runs down the body. Lets say it got cut, and they thought good idea to fix this faux pas would be an under rated spade plug set. May not be rated for 25amps .. so connection is dodgy.

Get a feel for weirdo previous owner work that appears to have been done.

So back to your issue, the other thing to look for is in the engine bay. At the fuse box, between the fuse box and the coolant expansion tank is a black plug. How this plug is set up depends on if you have SLS(air suspension) down back.
If rear coils, this black plug will only have a WP wire.. quick thick(3.0mm) coming out of it. If SLS, then you will have a WB wire coming out of it too. it's still the same twin point plug, just either one or the two wires. It's obvious when you see it, the thickness of the WP wire is the standout about it compared to the rest of the loom in this area. There will be a grey multi plug too .. much thinner wires.
Expansion tank is easy to remove. if you never done it, you just pull on the rear side of it(the cap end) lift and forward and it unclips(two tandem clips once it's up) .. then you need to pull up and backwards a bit to unkook it from the front side too(and manouvre the hose on the RHS away from the electric retaining bracket. Do this will reveal the black plug, with WP wire that goes back to the pump to give you your 12v. There should be a very short lead of wire from the fuse box, and the other side of the plug will go down into the loom(to the pump). If you find it's a positive rail issue, check for power here too, at the shorter fly lead side of the plug halves. also check the plug insides.. no rust/dust/mangled pins/etc. cleaning it out won't hurt it either.
This short fly lead is connected under the fuse box by another plug in connector(same 3.0mm WP wire to it, so it will be obvious. Also check this connector/pin/wire for power if you find that power(ie. not earth) is the issue.

So how to narrow down the locations of electrical issues. You already found that at some point you had no 12v at the pump plug end, if you find the same issue via chassis earthing too, then lets assume it is power(12v) problem, so no power at the plug at the pump. Now find the next connector in the path(that black one near the fuse box) is there power there? if not, then check for power at the pin on the fuse box connector point too .. etc.

Haha wow! I bet cleaning it would have been painful!

When I got mine I went over it head to toe, pulling all door cards off, cleaning every little bit I could find, and was in pretty good nick to be fair.

There is some dodgy wiring for the spotlights at the front, but I had the battery terminals all cleaned up by an auto elec and I am looking to tidy up all the other crappy wires eventually.

Thanks heaps for your help mate. I think when I clean the wires up in the bay, I'll give the fuse box a go over also and make sure all my earths are spot on.

Firstly, thanks heaps to everyone here on the forum with the help.

I do find a lot of posts state "Just google it" or "search this forum, plenty of old threads about this issue". Which I think is counter-intuitive to what a forum is about.

Yes, there may be dozens, or even hundreds of posts about these issues, and if you do find one that helps, awesome!

What I like is that each problem is based on the individual, their knowledge (or in my electrical case, the lack there of) and the vehicle (mods/history etc.).

So this thread is a great example, yes some comments in this thread are the same what I found in others, but it was the process of elimination and the individual journey of my case that I really enjoyed. This way I eliminated heaps of things particular to my issue.

Right, now to the update..

So I removed the headlight washer relay (R3) and replaced this with the exisiting in the fuel pump relay (R1) and this seems to have done the trick.

I can see my error, when I swapped the relays, they worked. However, I swapped them once I got home from work, and the issue was when it was standing overnight, the issue was present. So even though I had swapped them and found no difference, I failed to test this after standing.

Without this forum and the help of you legends, I would have taken this to the shop to probably be charged a few hundred labour diagnostics to identify a relay. So again, thanks!

Now, this has only been tested over 2 mornings, but even after work, after it had been standing for 8 hours, it would sometimes not work. So far both days has seen the car start immediately and can hear the pump priming.

I'll keep an eye on the issue and if anything changes I'll be back!

Another thing I learnt with the glow plugs is that the relay (R6) is for the glow plugs so this 'could' be an issue should there be a problem with starting but wouldn't imagine this to be too often.

I have learnt a lot on this journey, and now I am a paid member of AURLO I will look to support the forum. I am finding I am checking this forum a few times a day now, and hopefully I will be able to also provide support to others.

P.S - I took the relays back to the local LR shop and they refunded me and gave me a couple of spares for free. Great shop!

Bugger.

So the relay switch seemed to have worked for some time, however, this issue has reared its ugly head again.

It was back to normal - key in and in off position. Straight from off -> past ignition I and II straight to start and it'd fire up instantly.

Fast forward to today where this time I was stuck for about 20 minutes.

Started car - turned over without firing - 2 seconds.

Turned key back to off.

Turned key back to ignition II - did not hear any priming at all.

Changed relays (starter motor and fuel pump). Same issue - relays ruled out.

Left my finger on the relay when cycling the ignition and I am not sure if it was another relay clicking but it didn't feel as though it was clicking.

Ran the nanocom and found no codes.

I kept cycling the ignition and then suddenly I heard it prime - let it prime for 30 seconds, then she fired up.

So my uneducated thinking is that somewhere between the ignition to the relay in the fusebox is where the issue sits.

I'll find the post where I need to test the fusebox, as this could be the issue and then see if I can test it.

Interestingly enough again, the HDC amber warning light was on (not the green one). I recall seeing this the other times when it was not priming. Once the fuel pump kicked in, it went off - I am confident this is telling me something!