Thread: Particulate Filter

Originally Posted by Danj

Its a dealbreaker because it only rates 3/10 for air pollution in comparison to 6/10 for others in its class. Is also the only car in its class not to have a particulate filter.

I have a problem with the proliferation of yuppies driving huge, gas guzzling 4wds to negotiate the speed humps at Safeway. I only want a 4wd so I can get to the camping stops my dear little Kia Rio won't go. If I'm going to do this then I want to do it in the most environmently friendly way I can (given car is huge gas guzzling 4wd).

The Freelander suits our needs more than a softroader but yet all softroaders have particulate filters. I believe the freelander to be the most suitable car for what it is to be used for but have an ethical issue with buying a car that is so behind its competitors in regards to the environment.

Hence my question as to an aftermarket particulate filter or experience in general.

Thanks again.

Interesting.

What other cars do think are in the same class?

In what way would you call a Diesel Freelander a "huge gas guzzling 4wd"?

On what grounds do you think the Freelander is behind its competitors in regards to the environment?

Originally Posted by Scouse

It's estimated that around 20% of a vehicle's total emissions are created during manufacture.

There's a great write up on this in Restored Cars.

Any source for those data??? Methodology?

Here is some peer reviewed literature that says manufacturing + disposal/recycling = 10%:

Life cycle impact assessment of the average passenger vehicle in the Netherlands
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Author(s): Castro MBG, Remmerswaal JAM, Reuter MA
Source: INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF LIFE CYCLE ASSESSMENT Volume: 8 Issue: 5 Pages: 297-304 Published: 2003
Times Cited: 7 References: 15 Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: Goal, Scope and Background. In this article, the Life Cycle Impact Assessment of the average passenger vehicle of the Netherlands is performed, with emphasis on the current dismantling and recycling practice in this country. From calculations on recovery rates of the several material streams from ELV (End-of-Live Vehicle) recycling, it seems that attaining the European ELV legislation recycling targets (Directive 2000/53/EC 2000) is very difficult, even for countries with advanced collection and recycling infrastructures such as the Netherlands. An LCA of the current average passenger vehicle of the Netherlands, including a detailed modelling of the recovery and recycling should form a sound basis for comparison with alternative automotive life cycle designs and legislation efforts.

Model and System Definition. An average passenger vehicle is defined, having average weight and material composition. A cradle to grave approach is taken, including all relevant upstream processes for the production of materials and fuels, and the return of the recycled materials to the material cycles in the EOL (End-of-Life) phase. A particularity of this model is the detailed description of the Dutch collection and recycling infrastructure, with current data for the shredding, separation and metallurgical recycling processes (ARN 2000, Barkhof 1998, Chapman 1983, Pilchert et al. 1994, Worrel et al. 1992).

Results and Discussion. According to the Eco-indicator 99 (EI99) (Ministerie van V.R.O.M 1999), the largest environmental impact of the passenger vehicle's life cycle occurs in the use phase over 90% -, due to the combustion and depletion of fossil fuels. This is in agreement of previous studies (Kasai 2000, Kanesaki 2000). Also in the other life cycle phases, the use of fossil fuels is the dominant impact, even for the production phase. Resource depletion due to the use of the materials employed in the vehicle causes a comparatively lower environmental impact, namely due to the high recovery rate and efficiency of the metallurgical recycling, that balances for about 30% the total impacts of the materials production and use. NOx emission was one of the smallest emissions to air in quantity, but was responsible for 36% of the impact of the life cycle, while CO2 was the largest emission to air but caused only 6% of the environmental impact.

Conclusion and Recommendation. Although there is a growing awareness and concern on increasing the recyclability of vehicles, the use phase still has the largest environmental impact of the vehicle's life cycle. A life cycle assessment can be a Sound basis to evaluate and compare design alternatives to increase the sustainabiliry of passenger vehicles. The ASR (Automotive shredder residue) is currently the greatest concern with regard to the recovery targets. It is a large amount of materials (about 32 wt.%), difficult and costly to recycle, and thermal recovery is limited to a maximum of lSwt.% in 1015 by the European ELV legislation. joint efforts from the automotive industry and legislative institutions are required to find a sensible solution. LCA can be a useful tool to support legislative decisions, as purely weight-based recovery definitions are not adequate to evaluate the sustainability of the automobile life cycle.

So - 3 independant studies have found that the manufacturing + disposal/recycling phase accounts for ~10% of whole-of-life emissions.

Average economy for new vehicles inproves by 1.5-2% each year. In 1996 average fuel consumption was 65-70 g/vkm (grams per vehicle km), however has now dropped to 50-55 g/vkm (EU data).

So, if you are talking about buying a 2nd hand post 2000 car in good condition, then it is probably better for the environment to do that. However if you are talking about driving an 80's commodore, it would be better for the environment to buy a new commodore instead. And better still to buy a smaller, more efficient car.

That said, I will never sell or stop driving my 1968 IIA, but I might swap the old tech indirect injection diesel for a newer, cleaner one at some stage...

Originally Posted by BigJon

Interesting.

What other cars do think are in the same class?

In what way would you call a Diesel Freelander a "huge gas guzzling 4wd"?

On what grounds do you think the Freelander is behind its competitors in regards to the environment?

I believe the categories and rating system are here:
Information on Green Vehicle Guide Ratings and Measurement

The system is seriously flawed. Have a look below. The nissan patrol DX has a 3.0TD engine ONLY, the ST comes with either the 3.0TD (same as the DX) OR a 4.8 petrol. Not only can you not select the petrol option, they have different figures for the same engine!!! They also say "manual" for the ST when it is only available as an auto.

Overall Rating

Vehicle Details

Fuel Type

Fuel Consumption
L/100km
Comb Urban Extra

CO2
g/km
Comb

Greenhouse Rating
(10 = Best)

Air
Pollution
Rating
(10 = Best)
Select All
14732


Land Rover Defender 110 Wagon
2.4L 4cyl (T), Man 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

Diesel

11

13.5

9.5

291



14571


Nissan UY61 Patrol ST
3.0L 4cyl (T), Man 5 speed
Cab-chassis, 2 seats, 4WD

Diesel

11.4

13.9

10

301



13937


Nissan Y61 Patrol DX
3.0L 4cyl (T), Man 5 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

Diesel

10.9

14.1

9.2

288

Land rover diesels:

Overall Rating

Vehicle Details

Release Year

Current Model

Fuel Type

Fuel Consumption
L/100km
Comb Urban Extra

CO2
g/km
Comb

Greenhouse Rating
(10 = Best)

Air
Pollution
Rating
(10 = Best)
Select All
14735


Land Rover Freelander 2 SE TD4e
2.2L 4cyl (T), Auto 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

2010

Yes

Diesel

6.7

8.5

5.7

179



13118


Land Rover Discovery 3 SE TDV6
2.7L 6cyl (T), Auto 6 speed
Wagon, 7 seats, 4WD

2009

Yes

Diesel

10.4

13.1

8.5

270



14732


Land Rover Defender 110 Wagon
2.4L 4cyl (T), Man 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

2009

Yes

Diesel

11

13.5

9.5

291

The freeloader seems to shape up well against the competitors...

Overall Rating

Vehicle Details

Release Year

Current Model

Fuel Type

Fuel Consumption
L/100km
Comb Urban Extra

CO2
g/km
Comb

Greenhouse Rating
(10 = Best)

Air
Pollution
Rating
(10 = Best)
Select All
15085


BMW E83 X3 xDrive30d
3.0L 6cyl (T), Auto 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

2008

Yes

Diesel

7.7

9.9

6.4

206



14735


Land Rover Freelander 2 SE TD4e
2.2L 4cyl (T), Auto 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

2010

Yes

Diesel

6.7

8.5

5.7

179



9389


Mazda CX-7
2.3L 4cyl (T), Auto 6 speed
Wagon, 5 seats, 4WD

2007

Yes

Petrol 95RON

11.5



273

BigJon, in answer to your questions.

Firstly, I don't know much about cars. I drive a Kia Rio, which I think speaks for itself. I am here looking for advice from those who are more knowledgeable about these matters than I am. But opinions - I've got lots of those!

I am comparing the freelander to other cars as reviewed at drive.com (BMW/Audi/Volvo) and the RACV best cars (VW/Subaru/Renault/Nissan/etc). I don't know if this is correct or not.

I would call the freelander a huge gas guzzling 4wd because it is a 4wd. Ergo it is huge (in comparison to the Kia Rio), and gas guzzling (in comparison to the Kia Rio). I accept that from an environmental platform, some 4wd's are better than others, but surely a 4wd is always going to be bigger, more powerful, and hence less fuel efficent than a smaller car.

I am basing my opinion that the freelander is behind its competitors on the information provided by the dog and lemon guide and the green vehicle guide. If these are flawed than fabulous - problem solved. I would love for someone with expertise to tell me that the freelander is actually one of the best in its class. Then I could stop talking and start driving. Once I learn how to drive a 4wd of course (all though the freelander looks pretty idiot proof - I know, I know, don't say it!)

Originally Posted by Danj

BigJon, in answer to your questions.

Firstly, I don't know much about cars. I drive a Kia Rio, which I think speaks for itself. I am here looking for advice from those who are more knowledgeable about these matters than I am. But opinions - I've got lots of those!

I am comparing the freelander to other cars as reviewed at drive.com (BMW/Audi/Volvo) and the RACV best cars (VW/Subaru/Renault/Nissan/etc). I don't know if this is correct or not.

I would call the freelander a huge gas guzzling 4wd because it is a 4wd. Ergo it is huge (in comparison to the Kia Rio), and gas guzzling (in comparison to the Kia Rio). I accept that from an environmental platform, some 4wd's are better than others, but surely a 4wd is always going to be bigger, more powerful, and hence less fuel efficent than a smaller car.

I am basing my opinion that the freelander is behind its competitors on the information provided by the dog and lemon guide and the green vehicle guide. If these are flawed than fabulous - problem solved. I would love for someone with expertise to tell me that the freelander is actually one of the best in its class. Then I could stop talking and start driving. Once I learn how to drive a 4wd of course (all though the freelander looks pretty idiot proof - I know, I know, don't say it!)

Q:


If your so concerned about the environment why are you looking at a brand new car? Do you realize the amount of energy used and pollution created in producing a new vehicle? Carbon neutral my ass.

If you are serious about being "Green" go buy yourself a SWB series Landrover fitted with a 2.25l diesel fitted. They are a part time 4wd, can be run on biodiesel and doesn't use much due to it being as light as anything, it is slow, can be built up from recycled parts (reducing landfill in the process)

A pristine one costs 1/10th of the drive away price on a new Freelander so you could use the extra coin to donate to save the environment.

I am not having a go just stating some facts.

Give the guy a break. There's nothing wrong with trying to make an eco-friendly choice when purchasing a new vehicle. Saying 'why don't you buy a used whatever...' is irrelevant for many reasons - safety, warranty, comfort, ease of use etc etc. I mean that argument could go on forever until someone suggests we all get back to using bicycles or even walking for the ultimate in thinking green.

All that aside and assuming you are going to be buying a new vehicle - its a good idea to be taking its enviromental impact into account versus its competitors I feel - which I believe was Danj's original intent.

I don't have a problem with Danj or anyone else wanting to make and environmentally responsible decision when buying a vehicle or any other item.

I have difficulty though, accepting that a single factor such as the presence or absence of a particulate filter would dictate whether one vehicle is more environmentally friendly than another.

In the real world things are rarely as simple as that. It is entirely possible that a vehicle that rates lower on diesel particulates might have more items that are disposed of more frequently when the vehicle is serviced.

It is possible that the plastic used in one vehicle produces more toxic nasties than another if the vehicle happens to burst into flames.

It is far too easy to pick just one obvious factor and ignore a whole lot of others that might not get the same publicity.

You may well be right, but it a rare thing that you can just pick one factor and use that as the entire basis of a decision.

Dobbo, while I would like to think my IIA was better for the environment than a newer car, you should read what I posted which proves you wrong unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Danj

I would call the freelander a huge gas guzzling 4wd because it is a 4wd. Ergo it is huge (in comparison to the Kia Rio), and gas guzzling (in comparison to the Kia Rio). I accept that from an environmental platform, some 4wd's are better than others, but surely a 4wd is always going to be bigger, more powerful, and hence less fuel efficent than a smaller car.

Danj, to compare your Kia Rio against a TD4e freelander 2.
- Your Kia uses MORE fuel (0.1 L/100 more on a combined basis)
- The FL2 is only 0.3 m wider and 0.5 m longer than your kia.

A couple of points to note:

Australia has generally very good air quality, which is why the government hasn't been in a rush to spec diesel exhaust filters. Diesel exhaust filters will actually make your fuel economy slightly worse, as the engine has to work against the back pressure of the filter.

As I posted before, I don't know of a single passenger diesel vehicle (or petrol for that matter) currently available in Australia that comes with an exhaust filter.

Interestingly, diesel soot has a global cooling effect when in the atmosphere.