Thread: Cyclist aware drivers... are you one?

Originally Posted by big guy

Cyclists are here to stay like it or not.

Most are observing the road rules and you will always find the odd one that is beyond the law etc.
Riding is also a very visible sport as its out there in your face and on the road for all to see.
The reason we often do ride 2 abreast is to be more visible and believe it or not, but there are riding styles where the outside rides faster than the inside lane and the lead constantly keeps swapping to take the load of the lead rider.Its also nice to swap chat to each other, quite often one does 3 hours in the seat.
How hard would it be to just slow a little and let the riders do their thing. It may take 5 minutes out of ones life but perhaps admire their determination to shed the weight to make the lycra look good or just shed the weight to ease the burden on our health system due to obesity.
Take your pick but make peace and don't let the little things irratete so much as to insult each other over a few cyclists who in general are pretty good.

Wish I could say same about your average driver on the road. Look out the window and there are so many close misses, that is truly scary and its also getting worse with a growing population.

Go on, give a rider a go, better still go join us and see why a bike path is fine for your average Repco thumper but a proper road bike its just not good enough.

Sorry Big Guy to rain on your parade but the arguments you (and other similar posts) put forward whilst I am sure you feel passionate about are somewhat flawed:

To say most cyclists observe the road rules is an absolute falacity which can be substantiated by facts. I recently spent several days recording statistics in the CBD (one of the less desirable elements of my job). Whilst not specifically recording data about bikes it is inevitable that I took more than a passing interest and I found over 90% of all cyclists failed to legally stop at stop lights. (Yes less than 1 in 10 actually stopped prior to the intersection when faced with a red light)
Over 50% of cyclists when confronted with a stop light rode in a manner dangerous and mounted a footpath at speed amongst pedestrians to avoid stopping The remaining 40% rode around in circles in front of traffic lanes to keep their momentum or just ignored the stop light altogether. Of the less than 10% that did stop, many used vehicles to rest/lean on (a very dangerous practise indeed). During all my days in the CBD I only once ever observed a rider give a hand signal indicating their intention to turn, much to the pleasure of the vehicles trying to exit from a car park.

You mention it is nice to "chat" whilst riding as an reason for riding two abrest, yet we as motorists are now being told that it is dangerous to "chat" whilst driving with various draconian road safety experts who would have even more laws imposed on the driver.
(yes there are plans to consider banning even hands free devices from being used in vehicles). Sorry wanting to have a "chat" does not constitute a good reason for defying commonsense.

You want to ride two abreast as it is a riding "style", sorry this also defies common sense on most roads.

You like many other cyclists complain dedicated bike paths are not up to satisfactory standard for upmarket fancy bikes! Again sorry but neither are most of our roads according to most members here, can no one be responsible for their own actions. The excuse that bike paths/lanes are only suitable for "Repco" bikes would be the same as complaining the roads are not suitable for me to drive a sports car at high speed. There is no logic in your argument, if your bikes are so fancy and fragile that they can only be ridden on the best of surfaces then take them to a velodrome, if you wish to ride a bike on the real world roads/paths provided to get fit or be part of the fashionable green brigade that is fine, go an buy a suitable bike for that purpose (just like those of us who want to drive off road buy a 4x4).

As for near misses, yes this is a fact of riding. Again the number of incidents I attend where a cyclist has gone into road rage about a near miss is staggering. The facts are that the majority of vehicles know exactly how close they are getting (notably heavy vehicles) which is very close but no different to the distance other vehicles pass stationary/parked cars on the left or distance between vehicles on multi lane carriageways, yet other motorist generally don't go into road rage because someone came within a few inches. Think about how close you ride a bike to a car when cars are stationary in a traffic jam and cyclists believe that they can manourve around RV mirrors (often knocking them) if this is how close bikes want to come to cars then be prepared for cars to come this close to bikes!

Once again I apologise to the very few cyclists out there who do the right thing of whom you may be but I will not except that the majority of cyclists do the right thing, they do not!
I do not deliberately wish to enrage cyclists so I will end with a positive and that is there is one demographic of road users who make cyclists look like law abiding angels : Taxi Drivers (now can we start a thread where I can tell you some more facts)

Well written Thommo. Well thought out post.

And a cyclist leaning on my vehicle is never going to be a good situation for the rider! I've had this a few times and it's always ended with the cyclist copping a smack in the head...

Thommo wrote,...

Sorry Big Guy to rain on your parade but the arguments you (and other similar posts) put forward whilst I am sure you feel passionate about are somewhat flawed:

To say most cyclists observe the road rules is an absolute falacity which can be substantiated by facts. I recently spent several days recording statistics in the CBD (one of the less desirable elements of my job). Whilst not specifically recording data about bikes it is inevitable that I took more than a passing interest and I found over 90% of all cyclists failed to legally stop at stop lights. (Yes less than 1 in 10 actually stopped prior to the intersection when faced with a red light)
Over 50% of cyclists when confronted with a stop light rode in a manner dangerous and mounted a footpath at speed amongst pedestrians to avoid stopping The remaining 40% rode around in circles in front of traffic lanes to keep their momentum or just ignored the stop light altogether. Of the less than 10% that did stop, many used vehicles to rest/lean on (a very dangerous practise indeed). During all my days in the CBD I only once ever observed a rider give a hand signal indicating their intention to turn, much to the pleasure of the vehicles trying to exit from a car park.

You mention it is nice to "chat" whilst riding as an reason for riding two abrest, yet we as motorists are now being told that it is dangerous to "chat" whilst driving with various draconian road safety experts who would have even more laws imposed on the driver.
(yes there are plans to consider banning even hands free devices from being used in vehicles). Sorry wanting to have a "chat" does not constitute a good reason for defying commonsense.

You want to ride two abreast as it is a riding "style", sorry this also defies common sense on most roads.

You like many other cyclists complain dedicated bike paths are not up to satisfactory standard for upmarket fancy bikes! Again sorry but neither are most of our roads according to most members here, can no one be responsible for their own actions. The excuse that bike paths/lanes are only suitable for "Repco" bikes would be the same as complaining the roads are not suitable for me to drive a sports car at high speed. There is no logic in your argument, if your bikes are so fancy and fragile that they can only be ridden on the best of surfaces then take them to a velodrome, if you wish to ride a bike on the real world roads/paths provided to get fit or be part of the fashionable green brigade that is fine, go an buy a suitable bike for that purpose (just like those of us who want to drive off road buy a 4x4).

As for near misses, yes this is a fact of riding. Again the number of incidents I attend where a cyclist has gone into road rage about a near miss is staggering. The facts are that the majority of vehicles know exactly how close they are getting (notably heavy vehicles) which is very close but no different to the distance other vehicles pass stationary/parked cars on the left or distance between vehicles on multi lane carriageways, yet other motorist generally don't go into road rage because someone came within a few inches. Think about how close you ride a bike to a car when cars are stationary in a traffic jam and cyclists believe that they can manourve around RV mirrors (often knocking them) if this is how close bikes want to come to cars then be prepared for cars to come this close to bikes!

Once again I apologise to the very few cyclists out there who do the right thing of whom you may be but I will not except that the majority of cyclists do the right thing, they do not!
I do not deliberately wish to enrage cyclists so I will end with a positive and that is there is one demographic of road users who make cyclists look like law abiding angels : Taxi Drivers (now can we start a thread where I can tell you some more facts)

Hello Thommo,

An intersting post.

I imagine equally that similar observations would show that the vast majority of motorists also don't obey the law. How many motorists actually abide by the posted speed limits? How many actually stop as you are supposed to when at a "STOP" sign? I have one at the end of my street, and another just around the corner. Whilst having a coffee one day I counted the number of cars that actually obeyed the law with regard to their behaviour at the stop sign. Of the 50 cars that I counted, only 2 actually stopped as required. That is 96% of motorists doing the wrong thing...breaking the law.

School zones were instituted as a result of motorists running down children. I seem to recall that there were a number of such incidents occuring in Sydney prior to the 40km/h zones being enforced. What does that say about the motorists who would drive in such a dangerous manner as to hit children?

Ron.

Thommo, from your observations, how many of those you observed in the CBD do you reckon might have been bike couriers ?

and what's a bike path ?

Not too many of those suckers in this part of the world, but then we struggle for basic services anyway.

I have to say that riding on the narrow little country roads and highway that I use, all the car and truck drivers always give me heaps of room and locals out in the hills are great.

It actually gets dangerous trying to bunny hop the pot holes and miss the broken edges and wave at the same time

Originally Posted by RoverP6B

Thommo wrote,...

Hello Thommo,

An intersting post.

I imagine equally that similar observations would show that the vast majority of motorists also don't obey the law. How many motorists actually abide by the posted speed limits? How many actually stop as you are supposed to when at a "STOP" sign? I have one at the end of my street, and another just around the corner. Whilst having a coffee one day I counted the number of cars that actually obeyed the law with regard to their behaviour at the stop sign. Of the 50 cars that I counted, only 2 actually stopped as required. That is 96% of motorists doing the wrong thing...breaking the law.

School zones were instituted as a result of motorists running down children. I seem to recall that there were a number of such incidents occurring in Sydney prior to the 40km/h zones being enforced. What does that say about the motorists who would drive in such a dangerous manner as to hit children?

Ron.

You are absolutely 100% correct about motorists, I never claimed motorists where perfect, I was replying to those that make the comments of "cyclists" generally being law abiding being incorrect.
The other consideration is that the majority of motorists are held accountable for their actions (red light cameras, speed detection etc etc) seldom are cyclists held accountable for their actions.
It is as agreed by many including yourself I believe that it comes down to common sense however there are too many cyclists with the wrong attitude.

Now of the 50 cars you observed failing to stop in the correct manner how many continued through the intersection in a dangerous manner? If the observed intersection lends itself to stop sign running I would put it to you that most cyclists also would disobey the same stop sign. (I would suggest 100%).

School Zones (something I am involved with on almost a daily basis with traffic management) is a whole subject by itself, please do not start me on that subject. Needless to say the demographic most a fault of all School Zone incidents is the "Impatient Parent Picking Up being Selfish Road Hogs with tunnel vision and no concern for any other road users" speed whilst it should be limited is not the greatest safety concern. I am currently investigating/working with councils on several school zones.

This is becoming a very emotional subject

I suspect you may have confused big guy with CJT halfway through there, Thommo.

Just to clarify CJT's point, most bike paths I've tried (admittedly most are urban, and many are shared paths), are designed/constructed in such a way that it isn't safe to ride much faster than 20-30km/h.
One thing to consider is lines of sight at intersections (of all types: roads, driveways, marked crossings, etc). For example, a path beside a suburban road is likely to have only 30-40m between intersections (less if neighbours don't share driveway laybacks); and at each one of these, riders ought to ensure that it is safe to pass. At the abovementioned speeds, this equates to an interval of 4-7 seconds between intersections; which is enough time to respond, presuming other traffic hasn't seen you. Now try doing 45km/h: that gives a gap of 2-3 seconds from completing crossing an intersection to check that the next one is safe to pass.
On the other hand, as the majority of vehicles expect to give way to traffic (in the traffic lanes) when coming in/out of driveways, and lines of sight are longer, so one would have, speed for speed, proportionally more time to respond.

Secondly, poor construction can make travel uncomfortable, at speeds reasonable for a fit rider. Unsmoothed joints, grooves, and (my most disliked) patches of cold mix bitumen make for lots of inconsistencies. Rumble strips work for a reason! At least on a road lane, you get 2.5m of width to pick a smooth path. (Although the rubber hoses for automatic traffic counters are a bit nasty!)

Boo Hoo...

Pay rego, display a Number Plate and OBEY all road rules, if you choose to ride on the road, thats what I say...

If your bike paths are not suitable....

Easy, I think that would be the fairest way.

Then you do have a right...

Also, if I am hit by a Cyclist, when a Pedestrian, I should be able to report it, (ie numberplate), and also if you are DEEMED as a Vehicle, which you all say you are, and the letter of the Law states it too, Where is your Personal Accident insurance if you hit someone? And injure them?

Thats what I don't get. Would you be happy if I was Driving my VEHICLE without insurance cover, at least 3rd Party, in Case an ACCIDENT happens, and i hit yoy, your car, your property etc....

Mark my words, it won't be long till Cyclists, pay rego, and wear plates...

Then, they HAVE the rights of a VEHICLE.....