Thread: Victoria Police get New Bullet Proof vests, Great But Why?

Originally Posted by cartm58

so what is the statistics for Policemen shot on the job and stabbed on the job in the last 10 years

Part of the problem is we are following USA where guns are more common than McDonald wrappers

If Police need stab proof vest or bullet proof vest to do their job fine buy it for them

If Police need bigger truncheon buy it for them

Question is do they need it or they just want to look like a USA cop from the SWAT movies

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Regardless of statistics, a police officer - indeed any worker - must be provided with, as best as possible, a safe work place. As technology and trends change, the ability to protect workers change. Pop-up screens in banks are a classic example. Just because the CBA at Upper Kumbukta West has never been held up, does not stop the installation of those screens at that branch. It's about minimising the risk of injury to workers as best as possible. And if someone is killed or injured, implementing change so it can be prevented in the future. A classic case in point was the murder of Bob Spears and Peter Addison in Crescent Head in 1995. In a nutshell, a .20cent piece of plastic (speed strip) cost them their lives. Had they been issued with a speed loader instead, they may well have survived. It took a coroner to order the government to issue police with a better service firearm.

It also comes down to probability - there is a higher probability of a police officer being shot or stabbed or being needle stuck or assaulted etc than say - and no disrespect to them - a barista at the local cafe. But again, the onus is on the cafe owner to provide training and a safe work environment. Large flat white, double shot, one sugar thanks

And as for this comment - Question is do they need it or they just want to look like a USA cop from the SWAT movies -

Originally Posted by MickS

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Large flat white, double shot, one sugar thanks

In my day it was a big mac and fries and one for my mate"Freddy"... oh and keep the change

In response to a few questions...

Cost - NSW issued soft body armour is around $1800.00.

It'll save your life from most hand guns at typical (historical) Police shooting distances - 3-10 metres. By most hand guns I mean up to 45's. Full jacket rounds and long arms - forget it. Not even ceramic plates in the tactical armour will save you.

Soft body armour is slash and (largely) stab resistant for the centre body mass. There's always the vulnerable areas, such as the armpit and neck/head area but little will protect that (other than offensive fire).

It's generally uncomfortable, hot and annoying, but so is recovering from serious injuries. As Mick and others have said, it always takes people's deaths for real safety initiatives to be put in place - look at any workplace...I'm not referring to overbearing workcover inspections, just gear that's needed to keep people turning up to and going home from work.

As for head shots, well the typical (Police) shooting is a panicked, close ranged, draw and fire. By instinct you aim for the greatest mass, which is the torso. If you want to get someone in the head with a handgun, it's a well aimed shot, a surprise 'hit', or you're just bloody good. A helmet will not save you. Strangely, the 'Management' think tactical or thigh holsters are too aggressive, as are Tasers on the front of Load Bearing Vests (LBV's) and not generally supported - despite the advantage it give the bloke trying to stay alive....

Anyway, more blokes are killed on worksites and driving trucks each year than in the Police but it's been an interesting thread and series of posts.

Matt.

I don't want anyone dying on the job being Police or a Construction Worker (who by the way death rates on teh job far exceed Police fatalities)

I just don't believe that lots of things are necessary or good but merely copying USA law enforcement tools as that is where the Senior cops and politicians go for holidays (tax payer funded study trips)

We don't have the same issue of guns in society as USA, yes we do have illegal weapons in society owned by the criminal under class, yes on a few occasions Polcie have used their issued weapon to shoot someone, whether it was ultimately necessary to do so always seems to be.
debatable.

Police issued with Tasers as a tool to stop offenders without having to shoot them has led to allegations of over or misappropriate use of Taser by Police. I would rather the use of Taser than a bullet by the way.

IS issuing guns to Police to make them feel safer in situations or are they really necessary have we become that violent a society that Polcie need guns for self defence to survive an attack.

People attacking police in the course of their duties always has happened in the old days razor blades were used as concealed weapons, police been bashed at pubs with beer bottles and drunken crowds, domestic violence disputes always been around. So today level of violence higher in real terms than 50 or 80 years ago and si the answer issue a gun or is some other solution better.

For instance more dog squads to ensure physical riots are attended, dogs seem good at crowd control as does mounted police.

I think we need more debate as society what we want from Police and what our criminal justice system is to do with offenders once subdued and in custody.

Personally l don't think when your mad or ****ed that your thinking about 10 years in jail as a deterrent or the chance sof you being caught is a deterrent either your just going to act out your violence cause that is what you want to do, so deterrence is not valid so heavy fines and sentences are punishment for the act not a deterrent to the act.

So if deterrence is not happening than Police are really about catching and holding offenders so they can be punished for what they do and if your catching and holding people do you need a gun or do you need more police numbers to help in the pyhsical subduing of the criminal.

I think we see American crime shows and all the cops have guns and vests and we say that is what our cops need too.

Poms don't carry guns but they dam well have stab vests and have had them for some time.

Easo

In many operational respects, we draw more from Police in the UK than US.

I agree that Police are loaded up with more tactical options (crap) than has ever been necessary - going from verbal and non verbal communication to warnings (threats), to physical restraint, to oleoresin (OS) capsicum spray, to a baton, to a Taser, to a firearm... all these options are to be considered and engaged within a second or two with hours or days of judgement as a consequence. I don't want to seem like a rosey coloured eyeglasser, but it used to be a large man with two fists, or a baton or a .38. So you did what you were told or you got a tune up (fists), a flogging (baton), or a stay in Hospital (.38).

Things are soooo different and the Management are more concerned with image rather than actually fixing things - (cynically) I suppose it keeps them in a job.

In the US they take things FAR more seriously than over here. Their level of training and equipment puts ours to shame, but that's because of the culture there - they don't (generally) take crap from anyone.

I don't want to be armed to the hilt, but the firearm is not only there to protect my life, it may also protect yours - or your wife, girlfriend, child and so on.

The best weapon is the future (children) who respect and care about one another. So if our kids care about themselves, property and their mates, then they probably will respect the parents, teachers, Police.... maybe then we won't need to be tooled up so much. May I should take the glasses off.

Matt.

Originally Posted by easo

Poms don't carry guns but they dam well have stab vests and have had them for some time.

Easo

I think that should be clarified, the regular uniformed Police do not carry firearms, but there are specialist mobile "armed police" teams on duty within almost every police service in the UK.

The teams of 2 or 3 officers are usually patrolling the streets in vehicles and respond to incidents on a minute by minute basis. You only have to watch Foxtel for a couple of days before you see one of the ride along camera shows with them.

Originally Posted by mudmouse

In many operational respects, we draw more from Police in the UK than US.

I agree that Police are loaded up with more tactical options (crap) than has ever been necessary - going from verbal and non verbal communication to warnings (threats), to physical restraint, to oleoresin (OS) capsicum spray, to a baton, to a Taser, to a firearm... all these options are to be considered and engaged within a second or two with hours or days of judgement as a consequence. I don't want to seem like a rosey coloured eyeglasser, but it used to be a large man with two fists, or a baton or a .38. So you did what you were told or you got a tune up (fists), a flogging (baton), or a stay in Hospital (.38).

Things are soooo different and the Management are more concerned with image rather than actually fixing things - (cynically) I suppose it keeps them in a job.

In the US they take things FAR more seriously than over here. Their level of training and equipment puts ours to shame, but that's because of the culture there - they don't (generally) take crap from anyone.

I don't want to be armed to the hilt, but the firearm is not only there to protect my life, it may also protect yours - or your wife, girlfriend, child and so on.

The best weapon is the future (children) who respect and care about one another. So if our kids care about themselves, property and their mates, then they probably will respect the parents, teachers, Police.... maybe then we won't need to be tooled up so much. May I should take the glasses off.

Matt.