Are these five school punishments unacceptable?

**akelly** · 13th December 2012, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by THE BOOGER

Hi Adam not trying to draw you in but too most parents and teachers corporal punishment is or should be a last resort but if you take it away as an option what do you do when cajoling, bribes, stars and stamps just dont get the required change in behaviour? Its like telling bank robbers that the police will no longer chase them if they go over the speed limit some will deliberatly go over to get what they want, there is a small percentage of people both adults and children who will always rebel against any authority. Of the 5 punishments listed the only 1 I would have concerns about is the padded isolation room and as for the police option if a 10 year old brings a knife to school and threatens the teacher or other students then yep hand them over to police they are already to far gone for the school system to deal with

PS: I started out in the same bussiness as you only a couple of years before you.

Because you asked such a good question up front I'll allow myself to be drawn in...

If reinforcement doesn't work (which actually means you haven't found the right reinforcer yet or you are doing something else wrong) and the behaviour is unacceptable you can use punishment, of course. Punishment is either giving an aversive stimulus or taking away a pleasurable one. A standard punishment is time-out. It works pretty well most of the time if you use it properly - but most people don't understand how to use it and so it fails.

Here's an example for a kid around 6: kid is hitting other kids. That's bad and we need to stop it ASAP. Reinforcement is not appropriate just yet so we are going to use punishment to extinguish the bad behaviour (hitting others). We immediately remove the kid to a totally non-stimulating environment (usually somewhere like an empty room) and set up rule governed behaviour by saying something like: 'you hit Johnny and that is not allowed. You are in time-out for X minutes, sit here quitely and don't move. If you move from the chair or make a noise the time starts again' The kid stays in time out for X minutes, but if they break the rules (move, speak, whatever) the time restarts.

In case you are wondering how that is punishment; being ignored while others are playing or whatnot is extremely aversive to young kids. Don't underestimate how punishing time-out can be to young ones if it is done properly. You have to be careful not to over do it.

When the kid has behaved properly in the time-out area for X minutes they can come out. Usually then get the kid to explain why they were in time out and what the correct behaviour is (ask for the toy, play nicely, don't hit others, whatever). Then, and this is really important, the very instant that the kid displays anything like the correct behaviour we reinforce that to the max (with praise, a sticker or whatever you are using).

Other punishments can be things like removing access to things like toys, TV time or whatever. There are lots of ways to apply punishment, but we usually only want to use it for behaviour that must be stopped ASAP - so things where the kid could get hurt, or hurt someone else are usually the go. Remember that the definition of a punishment is that it reduces a behaviour. Reinforcement increases a behaviour - that's why we want to reinforce them as soon as they start showing signs of doing the right thing.

There are whole books and lifetimes spent researching this stuff, so what I've posted is a drop in the ocean of the theory and application. As I'm just riffing this off the top of my head I may have missed something. My intent is not to provide the textbook solution, but to point out that we can use punishment that is not violent or physical - and has the added bonus of giving a much better model to kids on how to behave.

Also, I'm not an author or professor, so my explanation is not perfect. There are lots of good resources for this stuff both online and in text. If you are interested I can post some good ones.

Imagine the model you would set up by hitting a kid as punishment for hitting someone! Can you see that it makes no friggin' sense to do that?

Cheers,

Adam

**THE BOOGER** · 13th December 2012, 05:53 PM

I agree smacking a kid to stop them smacking other kids is probably not the best way your non stimulating room sounds alot like option 3 from the OP padded isolation rooms

I once cought 2 kids 12 and 10 inside a volvo dealership in liverpool they came up with they were just looking found an open window mum was out (it was 1am) and they were just looking around for somethinf to do etc, I was just about to give them a walk when the local police showed both had convictions for car theft and joy riding

I dont let anybody walk any more i worry that by the time these kids get to school at 5 or 6 they may already be to far into bad habits for 6 hours of school 5 days aweek to sort out no matter what punishment is used. This sort of behaviour has to be curbed way before it gets to school age

**akelly** · 13th December 2012, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by THE BOOGER

I agree smacking a kid to stop them smacking other kids is probably not the best way your non stimulating room sounds alot like option 3 from the OP padded isolation rooms

I once cought 2 kids 12 and 10 inside a volvo dealership in liverpool they came up with they were just looking found an open window mum was out (it was 1am) and they were just looking around for somethinf to do etc, I was just about to give them a walk when the local police showed both had convictions for car theft and joy riding

I dont let anybody walk any more i worry that by the time these kids get to school at 5 or 6 they may already be to far into bad habits for 6 hours of school 5 days aweek to sort out no matter what punishment is used. This sort of behaviour has to be curbed way before it gets to school age

I agree there are some off-the-rails kids out there man. For sure.

For kids right off the rails there are options - none of them need physical violence, hitting, smacking or electric shock. And they work. I wish I could link a great video, but it's not online anywhere for free. It's called: Harry - behavioral treatment of self abuse. It is the most incredible documentary of the use of the techniques I'm talking about, deployed by a genius in the field. The client is a severly handicapped young man (early 20s) called Harry who smashes himself in the face (to the point he is very disfigured) to get his own way. Just by using behavioural techniques, a lot of patience and a **** load of skill, Dr Richard Fox gets Harry to change his behaviour and he ends up a really well adjusted young man (considering his conditon).

Think Dr Harry needed to 'reason' with Harry? Nope. Think he needed to hit him, or give him shocks? Nope. Did he need to drug him? Nope. He used reinforcement and punishment - simple things like giving Harry praise and a hug. It took months, but it worked.

Why don't these techniques get used, if they're so good? Because it is expensive to have one-on-one help for a kid, which is what the really bad ones need. The really bads ones get really bad because their parents don't have the right skills (or don't care) - or they have a condition of some kind. Those parents don't usually have the money to get the right sort of help.

It's not good.

Cheers,

Adam

DiscoMick · 13th December 2012, 08:25 PM

As a parent I quickly realised that smacking my kids achieved absolutely nothing and merely taught them that hitting others was OK. So I got smarter.
To put it another way, I'm the adult in this situation and you're the child, so I can always outsmart you without behaving like you.
As others have said, the most effective behaviour controls are withdrawl of privileges and exclusion until the behaviour improves. In extreme cases, exclusion is called prison.

Tombie · 14th December 2012, 10:10 AM

The lad I mentioned reacted quite the opposite.

We removed privileges, gutted his room, grounded, restrictions, made him write what he did and what he would do.
Asked, told, yelled etc.

His nonchalant attitude meant he got ****ty and then just CBF anymore and just went with it.

Once the punishment had ran its allotted time he'd just go back to doing the exact same as before.

However, one decent tan on the backside and for multiple months everything went smooth.

Ditto simple requests to be quiet or keep it down. You could ask 20 times without success - 1 smack and all good.

My other lad, total opposite. Ask and you get exactly what you ask for. Smack him back then and he'd just get angry.

**Eevo** · 14th December 2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

As others have said, the most effective behaviour controls are withdrawl of privileges and exclusion until the behaviour improves

no, that would would only work on a kid who can realise the loss

or
wont work where the kid sees the reward as greater than the punishment

when i was a kid (and i was a **** of a kid), there was nothing more effective at improving my behaviour than a smack. time-outs and loss of privileges didnt work in all situations. and wasnt a deterrent.

**akelly** · 14th December 2012, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Tombie

The lad I mentioned reacted quite the opposite.

We removed privileges, gutted his room, grounded, restrictions, made him write what he did and what he would do.
Asked, told, yelled etc.

His nonchalant attitude meant he got ****ty and then just CBF anymore and just went with it.

Once the punishment had ran its allotted time he'd just go back to doing the exact same as before.

However, one decent tan on the backside and for multiple months everything went smooth.

Ditto simple requests to be quiet or keep it down. You could ask 20 times without success - 1 smack and all good.

My other lad, total opposite. Ask and you get exactly what you ask for. Smack him back then and he'd just get angry.

That perfectly illustrates my point re: punishment. If it doesn't reduce the target behaviour, it ain't a punishment.

Cheers,

Adam

**akelly** · 14th December 2012, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Eevo

no, that would would only work on a kid who can realise the loss

or
wont work where the kid sees the reward as greater than the punishment

when i was a kid (and i was a **** of a kid), there was nothing more effective at improving my behaviour than a smack. time-outs and loss of privileges didnt work in all situations. and wasnt a deterrent.

You're not remembering much about your psych studies mate!

**Eevo** · 14th December 2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by akelly

You're not remembering much about your psych studies mate!

what part do you disagree with?

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