Thread: Sad sight, annoyed owner.

Originally Posted by superquag

To add insult to injury, the work was done by an apprentice and not properly checked afterwards, so he told me...

I have very mixed views re this. As a tradie, post grad engineer, wksp manager and technical integrity supervisor not to mention many friends and aquaintences who are also tradies I get torn between appys needing to learn and being charged/charging full rate to do it.

On one hand, apprentices are an in house cost as far as I am concerned. I have been known to mention to plumbers/carpenters/electricians that I ring to fix my house, that I know the scope of work well and the work should only take 1 hour (or whatever). I'll only pay one hours labour plus callout! Quite a few defend their use of appys and I reply by suggesting a lower rate for the work performed by the appy. Some actually agree so that's fair.

On the other hand, I take on dozens of appys on a placement roster, but I scrutinise them heavily. I prefer final year or mature students and I allocate them one supervisor each. I also don't shy from plain language assesments...crude workmanship, knowledge deficient, shoddy, lacks attention to detail, poor tool handling and so forth. Very few actually don't want to come back as also insist they are taught stuff so they leave knowing more than they did when they arrived.


Ralph - the benevolent

Did I mention that when the RAC arrived...to diagnose an obviously deficient - and split - hose..that they also discovered the odd tool in the engine bay?
- Said tools were marked with their owner's name...which was'nt the same as the car owner.

I believe he said something about pictures being taken...

At least one person was alleged to have been sacked... but don't know what they offered in compensation to the long-suffering owner.

Originally Posted by Ralph1Malph

I have very mixed views re this. As a tradie, post grad engineer, wksp manager and technical integrity supervisor not to mention many friends and aquaintences who are also tradies I get torn between appys needing to learn and being charged/charging full rate to do it.

On one hand, apprentices are an in house cost as far as I am concerned. I have been known to mention to plumbers/carpenters/electricians that I ring to fix my house, that I know the scope of work well and the work should only take 1 hour (or whatever). I'll only pay one hours labour plus callout! Quite a few defend their use of appys and I reply by suggesting a lower rate for the work performed by the appy. Some actually agree so that's fair.

On the other hand, I take on dozens of appys on a placement roster, but I scrutinise them heavily. I prefer final year or mature students and I allocate them one supervisor each. I also don't shy from plain language
assesments...crude workmanship, knowledge deficient, shoddy, lacks attention to detail, poor tool handling and so forth. Very few actually don't want to come back as also insist they are taught stuff so they leave knowing more than they did when they arrived.


Ralph - the benevolent

We have had many apprentices over the years.

While they are a cost,i believe they must pay for themselves,at least.

Agree they should always be charged out at a lower rate than a tradie.

The rate is worked out on what year the apprentice is in.

Often if the apprentice is on the job but not used at all,he/she will not be charged to that job at all.

Having an apprentice who is not supervised most, if not all the time,in my opinion is very bad practice.

I also find the best apprentices are usually the ones that have worked somewhere else often in a different industry for a year or two before deciding to become an apprentice.

A major problem in our trade is apprentices doing the trash work,and not learning anything,and also being taught by tradies who don't know too much themselves.

Originally Posted by scarry

A major problem in our trade is apprentices doing the trash work,and not learning anything,and also being taught by tradies who don't know too much themselves.

Hear Hear!
It's the bad apples that spoil it.

Yep, and apprentices devoid of a work-ethic (from home/school) teamed up with Tradesmen (?) who can't be bothered to supervise properly.. those kids don't stand a chance.

But On The Job training works very well if done thoroughly and with suitable students... compare hospital-trained Nurses with the University-educated disasters.

In the UK the petrol V8 has a reputation for exactly what you describe when fitted to the BMW X5.

Serve's em riiiight, daft BMW boogers got more brass na brains !

... Bet they dont' have the support network we Land Rover Owners enjoy

I own a shop in Colorado. I have owned this 8 bay business (with a commercial mortgage) for 11 years now, and what you guys are calling apprentices are a mere shadow of the definition when I was an apprentice in the 1960's in the UK.

Most blokes who come looking for a job fall into about three categories.

1) Older mechanics who are happy repairing older cars, doing brake jobs unit replacement and such but are most often short on training applicable to the modern cars made from 2003 onwards when it comes to diagnostics and electronic canbus systems. For the most part I cannot employ them as "flat rate techs" (as they are called on this side) and when I have done so in the past, the quality of work as been less than desirable with comebacks and customer complaints. A simple come back has a financial load of a $150 minimum against my shop, hence I don't tolerate comebacks too well and if I find bad mechanicing it is often a firing exercise if it is more than a simple mistake. The cost to value/overhead and revenue earning has to be monitored closely when hiring this individual type.

2) The modern trained tech (as they like to be called). These blokes come in all shades of grey. Some are good, some are self professed primadonnas, and some are careless/bodges AND some are just poseurs. My personal source of amusement I confess at an interview is the guy who has the shirt will all the accolades and sew on badges. Like Captain Mechanic with that passe GM multi coloured shirt about to "do battle" on a customers car.

Those completely computer and electrical diagnostic savvy are the guys I seek out as they can be good shop earners. Tough to find though!
Reason:-I fix difficult to repair vehicles, electrical work I sell in 4 hour blocks of dedicated time to the customer. If it can't be fixed in 4 hours including diagnostics I have to revert to the customer for more time authorization. My rates are $100 and $125 for hybrids like a Prius.
There are vehicles American mechanics tend tend to hate due to their system foibles and difficulty level to repair , Landrovers are one of them, so are Sprinters. MB cars and VW Audis.

3) The wannabes/unskilled and non English speaking immigrants.
In this area blokes will surprise you.
(My shop is officailly bi-lingual Spanish and English, although I personally can get by in, French, Arabic and Farsi. So I pick up a lot of work from the two international colleges nearby.)
On the whole I have found Mexican non skilled mechanics to be very wrench savvy and be very conscientious and careful with customers cars.
I currently employ two Mexican mechanic helpers/semi skilled who sometimes double as tech receptionists when I am not around. In the Denver area (Colorado being part of Hispano America, with about 25% 0f the population as Hispanic I cater to that sector of the community than many of my contemporaries)

This is the area I have to monitor especially.
I have no objection in hiring a trainee, and teach the guy in house, locating his strengths and weaknesses. We have a policy to send people on training courses. There is no opt out on that.
I have employed ex prisoners (no violent , non sexual offenses, no murders) with about a 40% success rate. Some have gone on to much better things as techs for big corporations like Haliburton.


No matter who the guys is, every new person allowed in the shop is on probation and I personally shadow the guy for a month before he gets a official employment contract.

In the ultimo quality control of the job prior to customer presentation. I still even in my mid 60's wear coveralls, get involved with each job, and personally test EVERY car before it gets the green light. Presentation is everything, and I keep almost every customer daily updated by e mail on job progression, costs etc so that there are no nasty surprises like sticker shock when the bill is plonked down on the desk.

In any case vehicle repairs are not an easy business to run successfully with a good profit margin. It take a lot of dedication and supervision to gain customer loyalty and repeat business.
As we say it ain't easy and if it was everyone would be doing it.
Dennis
zedcars