Suitable Touring Vehicle - Toyota 100's Factory TD Wgn vs LR Defender Wgn?

Some comments in Blue.....

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Justin and I had some good discussions about these 100 series a few months back. A family member of mine bought one new top spec (leather,height control, electronic suspension etc) with the 4sp auto about 14 years ago and still has it.

They are the best Toyota has built.
Good points:
Excellent engine with excellent potential for more power torque.
Excellent brakes.
Lots of room.
NVH is very good.
Very reliable.
It is essentially designed to fit 33" rubber.
Heated leather seats.

Bad points:
Steering feels like it's connected to the wheels with soggy springs. This can and would obviously be fixed via aftermarket suspension which most people end up doing no matter what make of car
Electronic throttle feels very vague and is very hard to maintain speed on slight gradients.This can be rectified via a aftermarket mod but I have heard from a few people with various makes of cars that electronic "vagueness or slow response" is quite common with fly-by-wire 4Wd's
It handles like a boat.Again, suspension upgrade usually helps with that
At ~80km/h it's an exceptionally smooth and relaxed cruiser. At ~100km/h it becomes a handful on any corners or gradients.as b4 suspension helps in this
Fuel economy.I don't think u will get the good economy of a CRD vehicle but it's not bad considering.....
Offroad ability.Again, it can't compete against a Std Defender and will require aftermarket traction aids for those times

The fuel economy and offroad ability are both worse than any diesel landrover. It requires momentum and a big run-up to get through parts that a classic rangerover can literally idle through.
Expect 12-15 litres/100km without towing. To my knowledge this vehicle has only hit 10 litres/100km once and that's driving around 80km/h on highway.Agreed, but the offroad can be helped with lockers and the economy that I've come across from people I know that have them is close to what u mentioned but can be improved along with improvement in performance via installing a chip
The handling is numb. The combination of wooly steering, soggy suspension and vague throttle make it roughly 15 minutes slower than driving a classic rangie over a 200km trip (sticking to the speed limit on straights, taking corners at comfortable speeds).
You will need the cruise control.
This vehicle will likely be replaced with a disco 4 or RRS if anything happened to it.

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I realise people are going to mention that u need to add a lot of aftermarket accessories/mods to get it to perform like a Defender, but I would like to think "if" I chose a 100's that some of these "mods" would already be done.....

I'd like to take a Defender for a drive just to see what they are like to drive - 1st as a daily driver & 2nd as a tourer..... The last LR mechanic I spoke to about them said they very agricultural (ie: Rattles; Dust proofing, etc) but they made as a work horse and expedition vehicle. Just not sure what they are like as a daily driver as well....

Thanks for comments, etc as it is helping me understand more about them and giving me another option instead of the only option I originally had in my head.....

1st as a daily driver would put a D3 in front of a defender,don't get me wrong,both my vehicles are defenders,mine's a Tdi,Her's a TDCi and I'm a defender tragic but if I was in your shoe's I wouldn't buy one,there would be a D3 in the driveway.To make the 100 series outback survivable is big money,$6,000 for the reinforced front end on it's own,the IFS models are grey nomad tar warriors only. Pat

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Originally Posted by Robmacca

Thanks Baz.....
A D4 at this point in time is not what I'm looking for, for various reasons, but when the kids are off our hands then maybe..... When we were up at the Cape early this year, we kept running into a young couple with a new born bub that were doing a 5mth trip around Aus & they were driving a D3 V8 (I think - it was very quiet) and towing a Campertrailer..... It went really well and is a nice car but it's just not what I'm looking for at this point in time... Not sure how 3 kids and all your gear and Fuel would go w/o towing....

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We have swaged it a few times, for up to a week, just the two of us though, we actually had room left over, which supprised the other 3 cars we were away with.

I reckon you really can't go wrong with any of the vehicles you've mentioned, good luck with your quest:D

Baz.

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Originally Posted by Robmacca

Some comments in Blue.....



I realise people are going to mention that u need to add a lot of aftermarket accessories/mods to get it to perform like a Defender, but I would like to think "if" I chose a 100's that some of these "mods" would already be done.....

I'd like to take a Defender for a drive just to see what they are like to drive - 1st as a daily driver & 2nd as a tourer..... The last LR mechanic I spoke to about them said they very agricultural (ie: Rattles; Dust proofing, etc) but they made as a work horse and expedition vehicle. Just not sure what they are like as a daily driver as well....

Thanks for comments, etc as it is helping me understand more about them and giving me another option instead of the only option I originally had in my head.....

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You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

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Originally Posted by PAT303

1st as a daily driver would put a D3 in front of a defender,don't get me wrong,both my vehicles are defenders,mine's a Tdi,Her's a TDCi and I'm a defender tragic but if I was in your shoe's I wouldn't buy one,there would be a D3 in the driveway.To make the 100 series outback survivable is big money,$6,000 for the reinforced front end on it's own,the IFS models are grey nomad tar warriors only. Pat

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Thanks Pat.....Curious with regards to the $6k to reinforce the front end? U must be referring to more than just reinforcing the lower arm that's prone to cracking ??

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Originally Posted by Dougal

You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

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Dougal, I can't say I agree with everything u said, maybe the 100's are different over in NZ, but the 100's do have a EGR and that's one of things that gets blocked off here in Aust along with some other mods that make the 100's perform very well, but u need to sink some $$ into it to get them to this stage....
Steering & handling, well that comes down to the person doing the job IMO....



Anyhow, I'm really more interested in learning more about the Defenders - TD5 and later models - I'll leave out the D3/D4's at this stage as I can't see them being suitable for a family of 5 along with all the gear, etc, maybe when the kids are off our hands. I'd like to hear about how they perform and what are the common issues may be....

In the past we've done a few remote outback trips, and this is something I want to do more of, especially with the family. I'd like to revisit the CSR and do the Madigan Trk and those kind of trips. These sort of trips I'd prefer not to tow anything and hence why I'm looking at what options there are.....

One possible scenario is that the missus can keep her Prado for daily running around and I'll get a suitable Tourer that we can use for touring and I can also use as a daily runner.... When I did see the new Defender and what it was like inside, it got me thinking.....Plenty of room for all the family and Camping Gear w/o having to resort to towing a trailer; Looks like it would be quite comfortable to ride in; 4cyl Rego; Good fuel economy; would require less mods to make it a suitable "long distance tourer", etc.....

I'm unsure as to whether the TD5 Defenders have a similar interiors or not to the newer Pumas ?? I'm assuming not ?? Is there provision to install a AUX FUEL Filter at all in these Defenders?

Whatever I end up getting, it has to be reasonably comfortable to ride in so the Family doesn't start to hate outback touring.....

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Originally Posted by Robmacca

Thanks Pat.....Curious with regards to the $6k to reinforce the front end? U must be referring to more than just reinforcing the lower arm that's prone to cracking ??

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The trouble is you can't replace one part,if you do the torsion bars the mounts crack free,do the mounts the chassis cracks,you can't lift the front either or you get vibration because the uni's don't run parallel.Do a search on the Tojo forums for more info,it's quite involved which is why the live axle model with a FTE engine swap is more popular. Pat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dougal

You cannot fix steering geometry problems with aftermarket suspension. All you can do is make it ride harder.

Vagueness is not an inherent problem to fly by wire. Two of my other diesels are electronic and neither of them have the problem of the 100 series.

This particular vehicle doesn't have EGR and the factory timing is already on the borderline of diesel clatter. You will not improve the fuel economy with a chip.
To improve the fuel economy you need a better gearbox. A manual or a better auto. But the 5sp auto isn't as tough as the 4sp.
I understand the 5sp manuals are obtainable in Aus. In NZ they aren't.

I also forgot the ABS.
The 100 series landcruiser appears to have a very simple valve system which releases all the brakes when one wheel locks up. This takes you from being in control to driving a 2.8 ton toboggan in situations where without ABS (or with better ABS) you'd have no problems at all.

Regarding fuel economy.
With the Cruiser you will need to carry 25% more fuel just to make the same range.

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The modulators also suffer from spool wear which causes ABS faults,very similar to the P38 RR,D2 etc,the mags never mention it when doing ''best buy'' articles because new modulators are eye watering exxy. Pat

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Originally Posted by Robmacca

Dougal, I can't say I agree with everything u said, maybe the 100's are different over in NZ, but the 100's do have a EGR and that's one of things that gets blocked off here in Aust along with some other mods that make the 100's perform very well, but u need to sink some $$ into it to get them to this stage....

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Depends on the year. This is the only 100 series I have seen without it. Which combined with the more advanced timing (not possible for NOx reasons on later vehicles) makes this particular one the most fuel efficient.

Another 100 series owner living nearby with the 5sp auto 100 series (which will have EGR) gets even worse fuel economy.

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Originally Posted by Robmacca

Steering & handling, well that comes down to the person doing the job IMO....

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I don't think you understand. The steering on these doesn't have enough caster for feel or stability. You cannot adjust that.

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Originally Posted by PAT303

The modulators also suffer from spool wear which causes ABS faults,very similar to the P38 RR,D2 etc,the mags never mention it when doing ''best buy'' articles because new modulators are eye watering exxy. Pat

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This one has never had an ABS fault and was only a few years old when I experienced it.
Braking gently driving down a ski field access road and one wheel was on loose gravel. Off she goes.