Thread: Land Rover vs Ford Transit

Originally Posted by frantic

Only if they actually wanted to sell more
It's getting painfully obvious the defender was just getting tarted up with a flash interior and the cheapest engine choice. The 3.2 td5 uses the same mounts so would have been an easy option to provide. The thing is they didn't want to lose sales of base model d4's but also in arrogance ignored market trends where you have dual cabs with identical drive trains to their wagon equivalent outselling the wagon, often by big numbers!

*Edited

Frantic, personally I reckon power plants makes no difference, LR could put the twin turbo 3.0 litre diesel and eight speed from the D4 in the current Defender and it wouldn't make stuff all difference in D4 sales.

Very few new Disco owners would consider the current Defender even with a decent engine / trans package as an option when looking at a new vehicle.

While few people ever say they buy a new vehicle based on safety standards I bet many wouldn't even consider buying a new Defender because of it very low rating in comparison, it doesn't have airbags or decent side impact protection nor frontal crumple zones that protect passengers and driver alike in a head on and for many that is to much of a gamble. Plus if you roll one the roof and pillars just flatten at great risk to the occupants. A new Disco is very hard to squash and much much safer in any accident scenario in comparison to any Defender.

Defender buyers are in general a different breed (not better or worse by the way) to Disco owners, yes there is some cross over but not much and LR would know that.

Personally I can't wait to see the new Defender when it's released. I hope it is somewhere between the ruggedness and off road prowess along with the storage capacity and pricing of the present 110 Defender and the power, comfort and safety of the present Disco and that it can easily tow 3.5 ton safely and with ease.

I know I'm not asking for much ...

Look on the bright side Frantic and all you other current Defender owners, if they built the new wagon with the specs I listed then I and many others would become Defender owners and imagine all the great discussions in the Defender section when us Disco owners start arriving in mass. ...

Originally Posted by TerryO

Frantic, personally I reckon power plants makes no difference, LR could put the twin turbo 3.0 litre diesel and eight speed from the D4 in the current Defender and it wouldn't make stuff all difference in D4 sales.

Very few new Disco owners would consider the current Defender even with a decent engine / trans package as an option when looking at a new vehicle.

While few people ever say they buy a new vehicle based on safety standards I bet many wouldn't even consider buying a new Defender because of it very low rating in comparison, it doesn't have airbags or decent side impact protection nor frontal crumple zones that protect passengers and driver alike in a head on and for many that is to much of a gamble. Plus if you roll one the roof and pillars just flatten at great risk to the occupants. A new Disco is very hard to squash and much safer in any accident scenario in comparison.

Defender buyers are in general a different breed (not better or worse by the way) to Disco owners, yes there is some cross over but not much and LR would know that.

Personally I can't wait to see the new Defender when it's released. I hope it is somewhere between the ruggedness and off road prowess along with the storage capacity of the Defender and the power, comfort and safety of the present Disco and that it can easily tow 3.5 ton safely and with ease.

I know I'm not asking for much ...

Couldn't agree more.

When I bought the Disco, I also seriously considered a new Defender. Had my job at the time not been Perth city based, I probably would have gone with the Defender, as I believe this to be a better choice for someone who lives and works in the country.

But as the job was city head office based - much of my day to day driving was in the city where an auto is an obvious benefit. On top of that, the vehicle is parked under my apartment at night (no clearance issues here, just tight turning circle a big advantage) and during the day I park under the office, where a Defender with a roofrack simply wouldn't fit.

At the time, I got a quote on a new D4 from Southern Landrover in Perth, and I wasn't prepared to pay what they were asking. So ended up test driving an Amorok - very nearly bought one - but it too was a manual (the auto hadn't come out in Australia yet) - and on the way back to town from the VW dealer, I dropped in to Barbagallo who had a nice demo D4 with a few goodies on it and only 1,000km on the clock for a reasonable price - so bought that one instead.

I'm not unhappy with the choice - I love the D4 - but could have just as easily ended up with a Defender under slightly different circumstances.

Originally Posted by TerryO

Frantic, personally I reckon power plants makes no difference, LR could put the twin turbo 3.0 litre diesel and eight speed from the D4 in the current Defender and it wouldn't make stuff all difference in D4 sales.
yet in 1996 and97 when they sold 32-36,000 they had the same engine as the disco
Very few new Disco owners would consider the current Defender even with a decent engine / trans package as an option when looking at a new vehicle.

While few people ever say they buy a new vehicle based on safety standards I bet many wouldn't even consider buying a new Defender because of it very low rating in comparison, it doesn't have airbags or decent side impact protection nor frontal crumple zones that protect passengers and driver alike in a head on and for many that is to much of a gamble. Plus if you roll one the roof and pillars just flatten at great risk to the occupants. A new Disco is very hard to squash and much much safer in any accident scenario in comparison to any Defender.
a new disco costs $20,000+ more let's look at it's 2 main competitors who both sold 5 times more in the same field. The jeep 2/4 door is a direct competitor to 90/110 wagon has same impact protection with a roll bar as top is either vinyl or plastic only difference is basic airbags put in since 98. The other is landcruiser series , leaf rear, same crash issues, no abs, competitor to 110 wagon and 130 dc and single cab, but with basic airbag tacked on to meet mines requirements. Main difference between these 2 and defender is basic airbag and they both have the engines from their wagon stablemates further up the chain
Defender buyers are in general a different breed (not better or worse by the way) to Disco owners, yes there is some cross over but not much and LR would know that.

Personally I can't wait to see the new Defender when it's released. I hope it is somewhere between the ruggedness and off road prowess along with the storage capacity and pricing of the present 110 Defender and the power, comfort and safety of the present Disco and that it can easily tow 3.5 ton safely and with ease.

I know I'm not asking for much ...

Look on the bright side Frantic and all you other current Defender owners, if they built the new wagon with the specs I listed then I and many others would become Defender owners and imagine all the great discussions in the Defender section when us Disco owners start arriving in mass. ...

Al I'm saying is LR have neglected the defender and abandoned one of the biggest sections of the 4wd market. Simply putting in a pair of airbags and having had ABS since 99 they could have sold into the U.S as well as made many more sales to OHSE mines, along with owners who want those options.
Putting in the 3.2 would have made marketing easier with LR able to say our td5, 3.2 makes the same power as the landcruiser detuned V8 td, instead of trying to sell the defender with the detuned engine from the poverty pack ranger

Originally Posted by frantic

Al I'm saying is LR have neglected the defender and abandoned one of the biggest sections of the 4wd market. Simply putting in a pair of airbags and having had ABS since 99 they could have sold into the U.S as well as made many more sales to OHSE mines, along with owners who want those options.
Putting in the 3.2 would have made marketing easier with LR able to say our td5, 3.2 makes the same power as the landcruiser detuned V8 td, instead of trying to sell the defender with the detuned engine from the poverty pack ranger

Airbags and ABS would have only sustained the defender in the US for a few more years.
About that time in the ROW Landrover ditched petrol Defender engine options completely. If you wanted a V8 petrol then you had to go talk to LRSV.

Due to the rapidly changing US emissions laws even the V8 petrols they used would have needed overhaul. They'd have needed the D2/P38 engines in short order and then something even better soon after.

How well did the Defender actually sell in the US? Landrover are a business and if they were making money in that market segment, then you'd be sure they'd have kept at it.
When compliance costs outstrip profits it can be much easier and cheaper to pack up and go home.

Regarding the Ranger 3.2 diesel. I'm quite sure that 50% more power would result in a huge amount of rollovers and negative press. Nobody wants to to take-over the Ford Exploder reputation.

hi Frantic, in general it reads like we agree on much as you have backed up most of what I said especially about safety standards etc.

My reply was more about your comment about LR's not wanting to lose sales of the base model D4 to Defenders. I believe at present that wouldn't happen, potential purchasers of new Discovery's in general are not the same people that would be attracted to a new Defender.
As I said they attract two quite different groups of people and no matter what engine/ trans combo the Defender had very few who would buy a new Disco would seriously consider a current model Defender.

That is likely (I hope) to change when the new Defender comes out if LR get it right.

Well,looks like i stand corrected.Maybe the profit on defenders is so low they just don't bother

Originally Posted by TerryO

hi Frantic, in general we agree on much and you have backed up most of what I said especially about safety etc.

My reply was more about your comment about LR's not wanting to lose sales of the base model D4 to Defenders. I believe at present that would happen, potential purchasers of new Discovery's in general are not the same people that would be attracted to a new Defender.
As I said they attract two quite different groups of people and no matter what engine/ trans combo the Defender had very few who would buy a new Disco would seriously consider a current model Defender.

That is likely (I hope) to change when the new Defender comes out if LR get it right.

I have a defender an an L322,no way is it a toss up which one is best.Neither have much in common.Love them both

Originally Posted by Dougal

Airbags and ABS would have only sustained the defender in the US for a few more years.
About that time in the ROW Landrover ditched petrol Defender engine options completely. If you wanted a V8 petrol then you had to go talk to LRSV.

Due to the rapidly changing US emissions laws even the V8 petrols they used would have needed overhaul. They'd have needed the D2/P38 engines in short order and then something even better soon after.

How well did the Defender actually sell in the US? Landrover are a business and if they were making money in that market segment, then you'd be sure they'd have kept at it.
When compliance costs outstrip profits it can be much easier and cheaper to pack up and go home.currently you have people paying over 100,000 for an old 97 defender,with north of 50k for old 80's models, a new d4 costs around 55k usd ,even if it cost $10,000 to comply and fit both the 3.2 puma and a 4.4 petrol v8 at $15,000 how many $55-65,000 priced defenders would sell?

Regarding the Ranger 3.2 diesel. I'm quite sure that 50% more power would result in a huge amount of rollovers and negative press. Nobody wants to to take-over the Ford Exploder reputation.

Yup I'm sick of seeing all the rangers, jeeps, landcruiser series, patrols, bt50s with Diesel engines powered from 120-165 kW and petrol engines (jeep 3.6 hemi and patrol used to have a large 4.8 6cyl)around 200kw sliding past on their roofs down bulli pass and Macquarie pass.
Don't mention the live axle G-wagen , that can do backflips and pirouettes when fitted with the AMG 6.2 v8

The ford exploder had major tyre and suspension failure issues, also was front independent suspension and after all that is still fitted with a V8!