Thread: What do you think of Dealer Technicians?

So, a lot of you mention about the fact that apprentices arent what they used to be, the education isnt what it used to be etc. They are just 'fitters' now and only 'replace what the computer says'.

But cars, trucks, heavy lifters, movers, diggers etc have also moved on. Technology changes. As it has in almost every industry. While the main fundamentals of these machines stays the same. Where a car in the 70's would be run on carbs, a car in the 80's would have Injection system.

My point is that you wouldnt trust a doctor to perform surgery without some of the equipment required these days. If he has no record of current pulse or pressure how is he suppose to work? Ok, maybe bad example, but i think you get the idea. With a cars computer if there is no fault codes, and the fault doesnt seem to be currently present, such as an auto gearbox harsh gearchange, how does the technician diagnose?

Also a lot of the time, even though the computer provides fault codes, it far from tells you what to replace and why. A Lambda/Oxygen sensor fault could could be far from simple to diagnose. It could be a multitude of things causing that particular fault. Its the same with Cam/Crank shaft sensor faults etc etc etc again you get the idea.

I didn't pick up that "apprentices aren't what they used to be" in anyone's comments.

More that the quantity and quality of training from the companies who used to be recognized as the leaders in the field is not what it used to be. In the heavy plant industry for example, Caterpillar used to be universally recognized as one of the industry leaders in this area, and tradesmen who did their time with Caterpillar were held in the highest regard. Not so any more. I have friends who used to work as trainers etc at Caterpillar Institute. They have left and gone out into the "private" market and have told me that the quality of training is just not there any more (at Cat Institute) particularly when it comes to diagnostic skills.

Many of the smaller "independent" mechanical businesses now provide a much better standard of training than Caterpillar currently does.

It's all driven by the almighty dollar. Have a look at who owns Westrac (and what other businesses are owned by the same person).

Not that long back, there was a massive "cost cutting" emphasis at Westrac - the first part of the business to suffer was training. (I'm only using Westrac as one example - other major players have gone the same way).

By comparison, my young bloke did his time with a small mechanical workshop in Boulder. They worked on multiple brands, and a very broad range of machine types (mainly focus on underground gear, but they used to look after our surface gear - Cat and Komatsu - as well). This was a small, privately owned business with a workforce of less than 12 - they started at least one new apprentice every year, sometimes two. Their workforce was very stable, with their long termers very experienced people who provided good experience and training to their apprentices. Anyone who completed an apprenticeship with this company was generally held in high regard in the industry both locally and further afield - I know the reasons why the company I worked for at the time chose them over Cat and Komatsu to look after our machines.

Unfortunately this company no longer exists as the owner passed away some time back, and his wife sold the business to a larger local concern - but even under new ownership and branding, the business still has a very good name in the area. Being larger, they actually take on more apprentices these days.

From what I have seen, the same circumstances quoted above apply to the auto / light vehicle industry. Those who learn with / work for the better independents out there seem to have better and more varied skills and experience than those who work for the larger dealerships (general statement only - of course there are exceptions).

Car salesmen are even worse. We were at one of Perth's largest VW dealers a couple of weeks ago looking at Amoroks. The salesman sat there and swore that the Amorok had a coil spring rear end - while we were sitting right next to a flash looking Amorok Canyon parked alongside his desk, and I was staring at the leaf springs. He should probably go back to selling fridges.

I used to work in the parts department of a dealership, and some of my most frequent comments were:

"They're not mechanics, they're warranty parts replacers"

"How about you **** off back out there and actually figure out whats wrong instead of trying to shotgun it with parts and hope that fixes it?"

One tech we had was supposedly one of the top 10 in Australia for that brand with his qualifications.... He didnt know how to rebuild a carburettor or how to make a gasket....

Customer brought in an early 80's car and asked for the ignition timing to be checked.... The ONLY people in the entire place who knew how to do it were the service manager and myself....

Tech argued that a speaker was faulty because it made a "pop" noise every time the ignition was turned on, I argued that it was the amp because the speaker only does what its told and that the symptom was typical of a failed amp.... Tech argued that he couldnt get any trouble codes from the computer.... He finally conceeded defeat when I told him to plug another speaker (known to be working) into where the "faulty" speaker was, and it did the same thing (sprise suprise!)..... The bad part? Diagnosis took him 3 hours.... I'd told him at the start what it was....

Car came in to have intake manifolds replaced, 15 hours and 3 gasket sets later the car left, turns out nobody looked at the small parts kit and noticed the small plastic retainers for the intake manifold gaskets, they simply used silicone to try and hold them in place.... I cracked after they pulled the intake off and asked for a third kit....

My opinion of dealership "technicians"? somewhere just short of contempt....

Originally Posted by BMKal

More that the quantity and quality of training from the companies who used to be recognized as the leaders in the field is not what it used to be.

Certainly hear what you're saying. However, having seen it for myself, I think the quality of the LRA's training is very good, particularly in the area of continuing training. In fact, I think the system as it is has a lot of benefits over the old tafe system.

Unfortunately, a lot of it still comes down to the individual. As in the old system, there are still a lot of apprentices who don't really want to be there. The good ones go on and do well and would thrive in any system.

I think a big part of the problem is the dealership's business model, which is typical of most large organisations across all service industries. They rely on having a small number of very skilled people supervising a large number of lower skilled people to do the work. Most dealerships rely on one or two (if they are lucky) master technicians.

This is where independents can have an advantage over the dealers as they often have a higher ratio of skilled to semi-skilled mechanics. of course the down side is they don't always have access to the latest information from the factory.

Cheers,
Jon

Originally Posted by AnD3rew

The problem is that now they are all technicians, they can plug in the computer and read the codes and replace the stuff the computer tells them to replace.

The problem is that they don't have any old fashioned mechanics anymore who know how to diagnose problems.

I have had a major issue with SWMBOs Peugeot transmission from new, everytime you start it from cold the first change is a hunge thump that shakes the whole car. Everytime I take it in the "technicians" say they don't know what the issue is because there are no fault codes.

Spot on - I've had my company Commodore for just under 4 years now and its had a tranmission fault from new. Every month or so, it will change down 3 gears when I accelerate, then it refuses to change back up through the gears - sometimes for 20 or 30 KM. I have to drive it around in second gear until it decides to do its thing. Switching off the engine and restarting doesn't fix it, it just sorts itself out eventually. Also, some mornings it won't go into gear - I put in into drive, but it just sits there in neutral for 5 to 10 minutes at times, yet when I take it to the dealers, they say there's no fault codes so there is nothing wrong with it. I also asked them if it had been serviced at all - 'No, they are sealed for life'. It now makes horrid whining noises when cold in all gears. Its only got to last another 6 weeks, so my fingers are crossed it will make it. It has just over 200,000KM on it and woe betide the poor soul that buys this car at auction - it is about to cost someone a fortune.

Originally Posted by Sprint

"How about you **** off back out there and actually figure out whats wrong instead of trying to shotgun it with parts and hope that fixes it?"

One tech we had was supposedly one of the top 10 in Australia for that brand with his qualifications.... He didnt know how to rebuild a carburettor or how to make a gasket....

Customer brought in an early 80's car and asked for the ignition timing to be checked.... The ONLY people in the entire place who knew how to do it were the service manager and myself....


....

Been through the first one a couple of times. Dealership techs had no idea what was wrong so started replacing components until the problem vanished. One joint tried to charge me $700 and the problem was just the same. No improvement whatsoever.

As to the second, I was in charge of an overhaul of a quite large marine diesel. The senior apprentice who was a late 4th. year, nearly a tradesman, and had had high marks all through college, had no idea how to use scrapers to take the ridge out of a cylinder bore. His basic trade skills were poor to say the least. I endeavoured to improve his education. He didn't like me.

It was a joy to watch old time motor engineers like Fred McDonald, apprenticed 1938-42, and Bill Kelly, apprenticed 1946-49, set ignition timing by eye and ear. The timing marks were just a basic reference to these guys and they could fix others mistakes in a trice.

It's not the apprentices fault, blame society and managment. (or greed and accountants)

While siso holds true you will nevemakeke a good tradesman if you don't let them.have the time to learn or expose them to a good learning environment, and those things cost money. And who wants to spend money these days if they don't get an immediate benefit from it.

I think I keep summing this up when I use this line.

Just remember that society now demands that we work down to a cost rather than up to a standard.

Originally Posted by relatively normal

So, a lot of you mention about the fact that apprentices arent what they used to be, the education isnt what it used to be etc. They are just 'fitters' now and only 'replace what the computer says'.

But cars, trucks, heavy lifters, movers, diggers etc have also moved on. Technology changes. As it has in almost every industry. While the main fundamentals of these machines stays the same. Where a car in the 70's would be run on carbs, a car in the 80's would have Injection system.

My point is that you wouldnt trust a doctor to perform surgery without some of the equipment required these days. If he has no record of current pulse or pressure how is he suppose to work? Ok, maybe bad example, but i think you get the idea. With a cars computer if there is no fault codes, and the fault doesnt seem to be currently present, such as an auto gearbox harsh gearchange, how does the technician diagnose?

Also a lot of the time, even though the computer provides fault codes, it far from tells you what to replace and why. A Lambda/Oxygen sensor fault could could be far from simple to diagnose. It could be a multitude of things causing that particular fault. Its the same with Cam/Crank shaft sensor faults etc etc etc again you get the idea.

He does it the old fashion way, takes the car for a drive, listens to what is happening, this comes with experience, learning how to diagnose without a computer, just being able to find faults with something as little as a multimeter, or test light.

Computers are part of the process, but not all you need as some of the techs I've delt with over the years of owning our D2 and D4 think.

The tech we were dealing with told me that the MAF was fine because the computer said it was, I asked him had he tested it by getting flow details or amp output, he said no you don't need to these days, well guess what it was faulty and all it needed was cleaning.

We had an issue with our gearbox just recently, as it was almost out of warranty, we figured we would take it to the dealer to see if they could find what was wrong, it had a slight vibration just as you start to excellerate lightly, of coarse they said it was fine, no faults, they all do that

So down to the local auto expert, his diagnoses, after taking the car for a drive and experiencing what I had said, he drained the oil and said that the gearbox had overheated at some stage and the oil was burnt and had lost viscosity, so changed the oil, all fixed.

You tend to get a bit tired of hearing there's nothing wrong, when you know full well there is and that there are other ways of telling if a part is faulty, yes intermittent faults are hard to pin down, but not impossible, if a customer comes in three or four times with a problem, common sense should tell you there is a fault with it, you shouldn't be told there's nothing wrong because the computer says there's nothing wrong.

I think they are just to lazy to put in the effort to really find the problem and just don't give a flying **** about the customer.


Baz.