The Strain On Defence Force Families.

**Ralph1Malph** · 30th November 2014, 06:45 AM

Well chaps, I have been following this thread for a while, but have resisted the urge to respond as I wanted to see the colour of everyone's flags

.
I am by no means an expert, but I feel relatively entitled to comment as (many know already) I am a current serving member, 33 years and counting with a rank that contains the words 'Sergeant Major'. FWIW, there are not many of those, less than 700 in the whole Army and I am in a senior sub group of less than 200.
I reckon many posters to this thread are well intentioned and generally read the mood surrounding this issue well. Here's my perspective.
Service in the ADF is very disjointed and stressful. The level of stress varies across roles, locations, families and outlook. Increasingly, it affects families more so. The main stressors are the constant threat of routine disruption and the general uncertainty to life. By this I mean not knowing (generally) what the day will bring or when it will bring it.
Remember, ADF folks don't control their life routine, we signed it over to the crown upon enlistment.

In some ways the issue is very similar to the mining industry. Mining companies require their employees to live 'differently' to most Australians and to do this they know they have to sweeten the deal...usually by remuneration. Defence is the same. It requires 'service before self' and so over the years a number of mechanisms and benefits were devised to compensate or sweeten the deal. Few of these are left now.
The intangible benefits were the most effective. Those little unwritten gems that just make it better. Most of those were legislated away over the years due to WHS or FBT. Yes FBT....when you are taxed on perks, you stop giving them.
It's all in the fine print. Some have already mentioned examples.
We still get 'no cost relocation' but only those items average Australians would have...hang on...you just said we are not average...
Free medical Yup. Great. Benchmarked to the 'accepted public health care standard' albeit, much shorter waiting times. Where this is noticeable is in allied health, prosthetics, hearing aids, glasses etc.
Subsidised housing. Still a great condition of service, but did you know the subsidy percentage has fallen from 70%, 30 years ago to 50% now and rumours are afoot to 'normalise' the subsidy to that of contemporary Australia...around 35%.

Anyways, it's not always about the headlines. I noticed today that PM Abbott has asked the remuneration tribunal to reconsider the conditions of service bit of the DRT ruling. This is spot on and captures the mood perfectly. It was never about the pay, always about the conditions. Always has been. Always will be. Those little and not so little things that add up and make service before self bearable and attractive.

Just quickly, we are fighting demographics today. Kids don't join for adventure and pride like we did back when. It's all about the now, the money and them.

To finish up as it's brekky time I ask a question...
How many births, marriages, birthdays, graduation, kids sports and weddings are you prepared to miss before it affects the home front?

If you feel the need to flame me coz of my comments, remember, I know what marque of car you drive!

Ralph

**Greatsouthernland** · 30th November 2014, 11:36 AM

Hi Dave,

all the best for Tindal, I'm sure things happen for a reason. I remember the place from a 'brief' stopover about 24 years ago when the C130 I was a passenger in (slept on the roof of the LR's in the hold) landed en route to Darwin for a 2 week Kangaroo exercise, an amazing experience I will always cherish. The ADF was good to me and I would have liked to stay on, but opportunity sent me in another direction.

I share the grief of the stress induced psoriasis and sleep deprivation for other reasons, I'm sure you've heard all the advice so I won't go there.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and reminding me of that short stay at Tindal, one of many experiences I thank the ADF for, albeit in my very short service.

All the best!

**Greatsouthernland** · 1st December 2014, 12:25 PM

Well here it is.

I don't think Lambie is being a responsible Senator by voting against everything as a 'threat' to push the pay rise to 3%. Just my opinion....but the senate is more important than to be used in this way (just my uneducated tax paying entitled opinion).

Abbott backs down on allowances in defence 'Fair Pay War' | SBS News

**frantic** · 1st December 2014, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Greatsouthernland

Well here it is.

I don't think Lambie is being a responsible Senator by voting against everything as a 'threat' to push the pay rise to 3%. Just my opinion....but the senate is more important than to be used in this way (just my uneducated tax paying entitled opinion).

Abbott backs down on allowances in defence 'Fair Pay War' | SBS News

Is this a warm up or the final dive? As it's only a 1/2 backflip 90 degree turn on a "fixed position" . Who is expecting the full 180 degree turn double backflip next?

**Greatsouthernland** · 1st December 2014, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by frantic

Is this a warm up or the final dive? As it's only a 1/2 backflip 90 degree turn on a "fixed position" . Who is expecting the full 180 degree turn double backflip next?

Anything's possible these days...

Just in time for Christmas too!

**Andrew D** · 2nd December 2014, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by frantic

your trying to bury the message in bull****.

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by frantic

Unfortunately your words where no jail originally, edit later.

Never were the words 'no jail' used, so maybe you have read something that was not there. It would explain to me the myopic exchange.

For the record you proceeded to reply to a quote without the words 'no jail' that you claim I changed. Once again the context is not there. Ensue the confusion.

Originally Posted by frantic

Just like you comment on deaths in service relative to cops, what a line. Do you exclude 1900-1946?

Why limit it to 1900-1946. I see no point in this.

Anyway, agree to disagree.

Regards
Andrew

P.S. Good to see some guys with relevant experience have finally stated the facts around the topic.

**frantic** · 2nd December 2014, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Andrew D

Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Never were the words 'no jail' used, so maybe you have read something that was not there. It would explain to me the myopic exchange. whoops sorry maybe "does not exist " means something different in your version of English? You then proceed to try and compare a negligent act to simply Disobeying an order

For the record you proceeded to reply to a quote without the words 'no jail' that you claim I changed. Once again the context is not there. Ensue the confusion. No again you claimed it "does not exist ", I then provided the link to the law and act.

Why limit it to 1900-1946. I see no point in this. Again your incomprehesible comparison of death rates between cops and the adf would only work if you specifically selected certain time frames. With 102,787 adf members killed since 1885 cops deaths are less than 1% that number since 1803, (759 police). Also about 98% of cops deaths are road accidents so even more pointless a comparison.
Deaths as a result of service with Australian units | Australian War Memorial

Anyway, agree to disagree.

Regards
Andrew

P.S. Good to see some guys with relevant experience have finally stated the facts around the topic.

Your original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frantic View Post
perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders.
I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. If it read 'may' go to jail then that's a possibility. But this possibility exist in all places of employment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frantic View Post
Work with live explosives, have people try and hurt them, deal with sensitive info, eTc.
Try state or federal police. On top of this they can be only around the corner from where they live and be exposed to this let alone in another country.

What is the correlation between Defence and Police in respect to deaths while in service, suicides, depression, family break-ups etc. I'm thinking they would be running a close race. Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

Regards
Andrew

Now you may want to continue to argue a point that even the pm has half conceded fine. But at least acknowledge where you made a mistake or two?1 I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. 2.Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

**bob10** · 2nd December 2014, 06:05 PM

Now would be a good time to post the RSL's official position on this. Worth a read, Bob

http://www.rslqld.org/issue-11-2-dec...-wra-pay-case/

**bob10** · 2nd December 2014, 08:20 PM

ABC 7.30 report, Bob

7.30 - ABC

**Andrew D** · 2nd December 2014, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by frantic

Whoops sorry maybe "does not exist " means something different in your version of English?

Originally Posted by frantic

perhaps with the section where it says they will go to jail if not obeying their bosses orders.

I took your post above quite literal. Nobody just goes to jail. (ha ha to myself). There is due process and even the section of the Act use the word 'if'. So we are disagreeing on semantics.

Did I change my post? No, and I acknowledge the 'whoops sorry'.

Originally Posted by frantic

No again you claimed it "does not exist ", I then provided the link to the law and act.

Note to self not to take what people post here too serious (literal).

Originally Posted by frantic

comparison of death rates between cops and the adf would only work if you specifically selected certain time frames.

Ok, and these are your words. You might be right but then you may also be wrong however I'm sure if an analysis existed relating to the two there would be some very similar characteristics in the data.

Neither of us stated a timeframe so the above statement is a possibility.

Originally Posted by frantic

Now you may want to continue to argue a point that even the pm has half conceded fine. But at least acknowledge where you made a mistake or two?1 I'd like to see this in the ADF documents. Doesn't exists. 2.Correlation coefficient close enough to 1

I acknowledge

In a literal sense the document does not exist. Does a document exist detailing disobeying a superior and the likely punishment, yes.
Well, even by your own admission this would be a possibility over defined timeframes, however on a serious note I think the other elements I noted, suicides, depression, family break-ups, would be up there.

Regards
Andrew

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