Thread: Disgraceful behaviour by Discovery driver

Originally Posted by MrLandy

I can assure you that all regular cyclists are fully aware of the caution and evasive manoeuvres required to try to stay safe on the roads.

Cyclists often behave very differently depending whether they are on their own or in a group. One or two bikes will normally ride carefully, avoiding danger. OTOH a large group of bikes is a very different animal, frequently spreading across the entire width of the road. I'm guessing they feel safe in a large group, but unfortunately that's not the case. On a country road, when a truck comes around a corner to find their lane blocked by near stationary cyclists, it can be scary for everyone involved. In single file cyclists leave room for others to pass, but not when spread across the lane.

As an ex-cyclist, and having been side-swiped off the road by a driver who was more worried about the car coming towards him than the lone cyclist he was overtaking (me), I can say for certain that some cyclists are idiots, some car drivers are idiots, and no matter how hard everyone tries there will still be accidents. But I can also say that there are as many belligerent cyclists as belligerent car drivers, and both groups become more belligerent (braver) when in a "pack".

There is no justification for aggressive driving, if indeed this is a case of such, but having driven at walking pace for nearly 2km behind a group of cyclists who had spread across the lane (twisty country road, double white lines in the middle) knowing full well I was there and unable to legally pass unless they moved in to single file, I will say that they lost much of my sympathy that day. They quite deliberately created a situation where the car driver had to crawl along behind them or illegally overtake and risk either a head-on collision or ploughing through the cyclists if something came the other way. Now ask yourself, who was being "aggressive"?

My point was to the red highlighted from what you wrote below (and apparently roundly contradict in your follow up further below).

If I missed YOUR point and you'd like me to comment on THAT ... Let me know what was your point.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

[...]But the fact remains that the most vulnerable road users, cyclists, are too often in the blind spot of self centred drivers and too quickly vilified for doing nothing other than legally riding on the road.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

I can assure you that all regular cyclists are fully aware of the caution and evasive manoeuvres required to try to stay safe on the roads. This isn't the point.

Originally Posted by tact

My point was to the red highlighted from what you wrote below (and apparently roundly contradict in your follow up further below).

If I missed YOUR point and you'd like me to comment on THAT ... Let me know what was your point.

Neil my point is that despite being fully aware as a cyclist and doing everything one can to avoid danger, there's no accounting for the fact that a driver has all the power, the big dangerous machine and the speed to quickly put a cyclist in a precarious position that the cyclist can do nothing about. Which is why it is not only the cyclist who needs to be careful, as many drivers on this site seem to think.

Just tonight on my regular ride, I was almost wiped out by a P plater who simply didn't want to give way to me coming through the roundabout from her right. I made eye contact with her as I was entering the roundabout but even then she was too impatient and clearly annoyed by having to follow the road rules for a cyclist! She almost clipped my back wheel as she came through! This saved her what, 2 seconds? This is not an isolated incident. This kind of thing happens all the time.

While I know this isn't what you are saying here Neil, frankly I'm tired of hearing other drivers claim (on this site and elsewhere) that the cyclist should just get out of the way and that roads are for cars only. It's pathetic, illegal and selfish.

Cheers.

There is none so blind as he who will not see. Hey?

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Neil my point is that despite being fully aware as a cyclist and doing everything one can to avoid danger, there's no accounting for the fact that a driver has all the power, the big dangerous machine and the speed to quickly put a cyclist in a precarious position that the cyclist can do nothing about.

Can we analyse the above a little and draw out some angles? There are some plain truths in what you wrote above:
- Yes cars are big machines.
- Yes a bicycle rider will come off second best in any collision with a car

Are you saying that drivers of cars bear greater responsibility simply because they are in the larger vehicle, that they have a greater duty of care to avoid cyclists?

The example you gave regarding a driver seeing you and behaving badly as a road user is not part of this. A deliberately bad driver is a bad driver. There are appropriate punishments for bad drivers, specially deliberately malicious types.

Talking here about good drivers, good hearted drivers who do not despise cyclists in general and do not deliberately place cyclists in peril. Do they have any greater responsibility for the safety of the cyclist simply because they are driving a car and the cyclist is not?

My thinking is that every road user is responsible for his own safety and should take appropriate care not to endanger other road users - regardless whether the other road user is in a mack truck, driving a land cruiser, or on a bicycle. i.e. no special duty of care towards the cyclist. It seems that you take a different view to this. Is that so?

Reasons for my thinking:
There are lots of things we do in life without the protection of a full metal jacket and that come with risks inherent. Things like: scuba diving, bungee jumping, parachuting, rock climbing, ....cycling.

When I dive or climb or go crevassing I know that I am responsible for my own safety, including taking avoidance actions that may be necessitated by the environment around me, or by others not doing the right thing. (E.g. not becoming victim #2 if another diver runs out of air)

I drive my Defender in the jungle. I am fully aware that if I accidentally cross path with an elephant in the jungle my vehicle is likely to be damaged or destroyed and I may be killed. I know and mentally rehearse the actions to take in such a situation - One is to slam the vehicle into reverse and go full noise in the opposite direction assuming no obstacle (like a convoy of buddies!). Backup plan is to get out and away from the vehicle.

Very often we use logging trails to gain access to deep jungle. Logging trucks use these trails, often scary steep, slippery clay/mud trails. Often the trails are one vehicle wide. The logging trucks (locally "Lori Hantu" meaning "Ghost truck") appear unexpectedly like the apparitions after which they are named. Often they have no brakes. And if they did have functional brakes, on a steep slippery slope couldn't stop anyway. Rule is to get out of their way no matter what. I accept that and the risk.

Even when with the comforting full metal jacket my Defender provides me on urban roads and highways. There are larger vehicles there too that can crush my vehicle and kill me too.

Feeling vulnerable, even wrapped in a Defender, is not out of the question on or offroad.

Which leads right back to my point/thinking: I expect no more from them (other bigger road users) than to drive like I do - with reasonable care and attention to their safety and mine, within the rules of the road.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Which is why it is not only the cyclist who needs to be careful, as many drivers on this site seem to think.

Well seems we agree here on the idea that it is not ONLY the cyclist who needs to exercise care. Do we have a point of difference though related to HOW MUCH care?

As stated above - I would think the car driver only need extend the same care toward a cyclist as he would to any other road user which of course includes things like: Safe following distance. Safe overtaking clearance.

Once you start going down a path of saying the smallest and most vulnerable road user sets the standard that all other larger more metal clad road users must stoop down to accommodate (is this what you advocate?).... That path ends with 18 wheelers made of marshmallow and speed limited to 11kmh so there is no possibility of injury to a cyclist in any kind of vehicular altercation.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Just tonight on my regular ride, I was almost wiped out by a P plater who simply didn't want to give way to me coming through the roundabout from her right. I made eye contact with her as I was entering the roundabout but even then she was too impatient and clearly annoyed by having to follow the road rules for a cyclist! She almost clipped my back wheel as she came through! This saved her what, 2 seconds? This is not an isolated incident. This kind of thing happens all the time.

And this sort of thing is not a part of a reasoned discussion between road users who are not twisted and malignant beings.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

While I know this isn't what you are saying here Neil, frankly I'm tired of hearing other drivers claim (on this site and elsewhere) that the cyclist should just get out of the way and that roads are for cars only. It's pathetic, illegal and selfish.
Cheers.

Haven't seen that in this thread. I know that there are other threads here that from the title look like rants about cyclists ... haven't gone into read any of those. Don't intend to either.

The care required is proportional to the size of the vehicle IMO. Obviously all road users need to follow the road rules. Which includes cyclists stopping at red lights and drivers recognising that cyclists have a right to be on the road even if it slows drivers down.

This thread began because of the dangerous carelessness shown towards cyclists by a driver. As such, my example from tonight is exactly what it is about.

Obviously none of this applies to considerate careful drivers. Tonight I also had a B-Double wait patiently behind me around a corner, then give me room as he passed. He got the Landy wave from me.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

The care required is proportional to the size of the vehicle IMO. Obviously all road users need to follow the road rules. Which includes cyclists stopping at red lights and drivers recognising that cyclists have a right to be on the road even if it slows drivers down.
[...]

I think you mean inversely proportional when talking about amount of care needed as it relates to vehicle size. In which case on that single point I disagree with you absolutely.

You dont need to keep DEFENDERing lyra clad cyclists,Ive seen LOTS of shocking cyclist behavior when they are in THE MOB,pelleton??????
Loved dumping the foot in the D2 when they bloked the road in dangerous situations.The black smoke cloud would block out the number plate,breathe that diesel power.
Andrew