Thread: Big storm and no power in SA

I don't even think we need to roll out renewables faster, I think its happening too fast now or perhaps reliance on renewables is too high.

We just need to make the transition a little....maybe a lot .....softer by not relying on renewables until they are capable of maintaining the loads placed on them.

Technology will give us the answers we need but until we hit that equilibrium we will have to suffer problems.

Originally Posted by Mick_Marsh

In Vic., for the average winters day you would have about three hours of energy production. Worst case, I would estimate the possibility of three days straight of no energy production. My home uses about 15kWh each day (more on weekends). So, that is around 45kWh useable of battery units (probably around $60,000 worth) and around 10kW of solar panels (probably around $10,000 worth). That would be around 35 years of power bills. Bear in mind the batteries will only last around seven years and the solar panels twenty years so that's about $260,000 (and I haven't included the cost of maintenance) for off grid power compared to $70,000 (35 years) thermal grid power.

That is ball park figures. Post up your own. if you disagree.

Just about to pay our power bill - according to Ergon, our daily usage for this bill was 5.64 kWh for a daily cost of $2.61. The daughter gets about 5x the bill that we get, but they have a/c and a big fish tank with a Saratoga called Sarge in it

SA power: Premier Jay Weatherill unleashes on AGL after company shelves investment plans - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Weatherill really does tell it like it is. Great stuff!

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

SA power: Premier Jay Weatherill unleashes on AGL after company shelves investment plans - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Weatherill really does tell it like it is. Great stuff!

1) desperate times call for desperate measures...
2) AGL as a business have the right to choose if and where to invest its money.
if the market changes so its no longer worthwhile to do something, why should they be forced to continue. in fact as a publically traded company, the board has a legal obligation towards their shareholders, and making an investment into something which isnt going to make a return, will land them in legal hotwater.

Originally Posted by Homestar

I think in general a lot of us actually agree on what we seem to be arguing about - I think most here (like me) think renewables are a great idea and that they should be developed much faster and rolled out quicker but also ensuring we have a stable and reliable network - in whatever form that takes - while we transition over to renewables. In between all that we can continue to discuss how that could best be done.

If I'm wrong - hands up those that are actually against renewable energy here?

i've been thinking a lot about what you said this evening.

does the system we've moving towards supersede the current system?

is it higher performance?
it is cheaper?
it is high quality?
does it have more flexibility?
does it have more reliance?

unfortunately not all renewable can say yes to this.

whats the old saying, cheap, reliable, performance. choose two.

we have to ask ourselves where do our priories lie.

The gas plant SA is adding will, I understand, be used as a constantly available backup which can be brought on line when the rest of the system is unable to meet the demand, so that will make the system more stable. The solar-battery additions will increase supply and some will be held in reserve to help balance the system.
I don't see a problem. I also don't see why anyone would oppose these changes.

Originally Posted by Eevo

i've been thinking a lot about what you said this evening.

does the system we've moving towards supersede the current system?

is it higher performance?
it is cheaper?
it is high quality?
does it have more flexibility?
does it have more reliance?

unfortunately not all renewable can say yes to this.

whats the old saying, cheap, reliable, performance. choose two.

we have to ask ourselves where do our priories lie.

You forgot of course the other question that concerns many people, is it cleaner? Roughly half of the population at any moment support the reduction in particulate emissions, the heavy metals emissions and of course the carbon dioxide emissions. The other half simply don't care because they don't live close enough to the source of pollution to notice.

I think the problem is that people expect the power grid to be instantly available 24/7/365 to the maximum load they can think of, forgetting that for the vast percentage of human history people had to be good at managing intermittent energy, or suffer. Modern people have grown up thinking that by splashing an amount of cash they can have the perfect car, the perfect house, the perfect computer etc and their disappointment is inevitable. Unfortunately anything new will never be perfect, or even better in every respect to the product that preceded it. So goes it with a renewables based grid.

Having said that, I still laugh at people who hold up the old large generator model of the grid as some kind of pinnacle of excellence, it wasn't. Living in Adelaide for most of my life power cuts were much more common in the past, therefore I built a backup system into my current house. The number of power failures has definitely dropped over the last 10 years, even with the anomalous events of the last few months included.

There will be a large capital cost involved with setting up a sufficiently reliable renewable based grid but once its components are installed its running costs will be lower. Wind and sunshine remain free, and maintenance costs of renewable collectors doesn't seem to be as high as some people have predicted. For instance, some people claim that solar PV farms have to be washed regularly, but it has been found that now that the panels are cheap, you just put more in and let them get a little dusty. I haven't cleaned my panels for years and they still work fine without me endangering myself and climbing up on the roof every month.

Solar and batteries are allowing the decentralisation of power generation, which is a good thing as it reduces the market monopoly of a few big generators, who have gamed the national market to put profits before people (prices up 175 percent over 15 years - how can anyone defend that?)
I also expect to see a lot more yacht-style wind generators installed to keep battery banks charged at night. At around $1000 they are affordable.
This is people using technology to take back control of their lives, which is good.