DISCIPLINE THESE DAYS

Sending troubled kids to jail is a punishment, and punishment can be necessary, but prison guards are usually not trained to rehabilitate those they are guarding. They get frustrated and respond unwisely to unacceptable behaviour and that can result in abuses like Don Dale in the NT and other problems. Political focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation just makes it worse.
Prison is not rehabilitation unless it's combined with other programs aimed at showing them how to change and why they would want to turn their lives around and take responsibility for improving their own futures, rather than just lashing out at others.
One of the factors in the problem is unemployment - we have overall six job-seekers for every job available and its much higher for young people and for those without desirable skills.
One of the reasons for this is that the nature of the job market is changing with fewer jobs for unskilled young people as more work becomes automated or requires higher skills. This seems to be an inevitable trend, no matter which politicians are in power.
The result is more young people unable to get a job and left sitting around bored and getting into trouble.
John Howard was right to say a job is better than welfare, but when there aren't enough jobs, that isn't working. It can work though: here's one example of it actually working:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-0...hance/7992090e

Another example is one of my church friends who has just celebrated going off parole five years after leaving prison. He had been either in prison or on parole for most of his life since his early teens. It wasn't repeated terms in prison which changed him - he calls prison 'school for crims'.
What changed him was the sustained support of prison chaplains who helped him to see that his life is valuable and to reject suicide and violence. He is now a chaplain himself helping others. So rehabilitation can work - it's tough love.

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Discipline is DISCIPLINE, and it ain't just about jobs, it starts a lot earlier than that,..and it ain't NOTHING to do with goverments, no matter what your political persuasions are, and no matter how much & often your comments are one sided bias, it has nothing to do with governments.
Now talk "Parents", "Love", "Guidance", and the "discipline", that has to go with that (parenting), from a very early age, and you've got my attention.
Gotta "Understand" them, ra ra ar,....yeah well PARENTS take note,...I've heard plenty in the media, some of their attitudes are ridiculous, their children obvously never had a chance from birth,... NEVER their fault,.. "ah, ya gotta understand"....ra ra ra.....Sure you do,..but do these Parents?....
I've NEVER "HIT" my children, who are now grown up, but I did smack them, on the bottom, or the legs, a couple of times. We also "controlled" them, they were never allowed out at night unless we knew where they were, and someone of a responsible age that we knew was with them.
All old school you say,..No, I say, just the way to do it.
Some say, "Ya've gotta talk to em",..sure you do, & so you should. But there is a limit,..if they don't listen, then they cop the consequences. Sometimes even the thought of "consequences" will be enough. I'll give you an example.
Many years ago, a friend of mine's in laws were having problems with vandal damage/graffitti in their street.
Everyone knew who was responsible,...a group of teenagers. Residents had spoken to them, only to be rubbished/insulted. So, my friend's had enough,..He catches up with these kids, and He fronts them, tells them he knows what they've been doing, tells them it had better stop, or He will "Deal" with them,...also said, "But I'm here now, if ya wanna have a go, or have anything to say", now's the time. NONE of them said anything, so He walked away.
Result, NO more damage in that street, ever, to this day.
And the older "children" get, the worse it becomes,..if they're not sorted early, chances are they never will be, and will carry their attitude with them through older years.
Pickles.

A large contribution to the problem is that so many people believe a single solution is the answer to every problem.

We bought up three children, each one an individual, with individual disciplinary solutions.

They are now adults that we are proud of, bringing up their own kids responsibly.

Treat the problem, not the symptom.

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

Discipline is DISCIPLINE, and it ain't just about jobs, it starts a lot earlier than that,..and it ain't NOTHING to do with goverments, no matter what your political persuasions are, and no matter how much & often your comments are one sided bias, it has nothing to do with governments.
Now talk "Parents", "Love", "Guidance", and the "discipline"
that has to go with that, from a very early age, and you've got my attention.
Gotta "Understand" them, ra ra ar,....yeah well PARENTS take note,...I've heard plenty in the media, some of their attitudes are ridiculous, their children obvously never had a chance from birth,... NEVER their fault,.. "?h, ya gotta understand"....ra ra ra.
I've NEVER "HIT" my children, who are now grown up, but I did smack them, on the bottom, or the legs, a couple of times. We also "controlled" them, they were never allowed out at night unless we knew where they were, and someone of a responsible age that we knew was with them.
All old school you say,..No, I say, just the way to do it.
Some say, "Ya've gotta talk to 'm",..sure you do, & so you should. But there is a limit,..if they don't listen, then they cop the consequences. Sometimes even the thought of "consequences" will be enough. I'll give you an example.
Many years ago, a friend of mine's in laws were having problems with vandal damage/graffitti in their street.
Everyone knew who was responsible,...a group of teenagers. Residents had spoken to them, only to be rubbished/insulted. So, my friend's had enough,..He catches up with these kids, and He fronts them, tells them he knows what they've been doing, tells them it had better stop, or He will "Deal" with them,...also said, "But I'm here now, if ya wanna have a go, or have anything to say", now's the time. NONE of them said anything, so He walked away.
Result, NO more damage in that street, ever, to this day.
And the older "children" get, the worse it becomes,..if they're not sorted early, chances are they never will be, and will carry their attitude with them through older years.
Pickles.

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I completely agree with you about the importance of parents. Its very important for parents to model good behaviour and to set boundaries. Unfortunately, by the time they get to prison they are usually out of control and there isn't much the parents can do.
I didn't say this was political. Changing political parties doesn't seem to make much difference.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

A large contribution to the problem is that so many people believe a single solution is the answer to every problem.

We bought up three children, each one an individual, with individual disciplinary solutions.

They are now adults that we are proud of, bringing up their own kids responsibly.

Treat the problem, not the symptom.

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That may very well be true, in fact, I'd say it is true.
The problem is, many parents just don't care, they don't treat their children as "individuals", as of course they should, nor do they take the time to work out "individual disciplinary solutions".
And I ain't perfect either, neither are my children who've had their challenges like most of us, but I'm proud of 'em, they do their best, they don''t ask for any favours, and I love 'em,....and I think they love me,....which is good enough for me.
Pickles.

Pickles, I'd venture to suggest that you did have different regimes for each child, even if it was not consciously.

There are parents who simply don't care and/or couldn't be bothered. They see having kids as an income source, exploiting every welfare payment possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

Pickles, I'd venture to suggest that you did have different regimes for each child, even if it was not consciously.

There are parents who simply don't care and/or couldn't be bothered. They see having kids as an income source, exploiting every welfare payment possible.

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I did mate, I did, Well I should say "We" did, 'cause of course Mum was there as well.
And I'd never really thouught about this (differences) before either, so it was obviously "not consciously"!!
But yes, they were different, but plenty of caring, showing how to, loving, reading to, and,....just being there with them.
And it wasn't always easy, but it's just what one does for one's children, if one REALLY cares, and is prepared to put in the time.
Pickles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

There are parents who simply don't care and/or couldn't be bothered. They see having kids as an income source, exploiting every welfare payment possible.

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And there are many youths in the centres that were abused all their lives,had one uncaring, or no parents at all,etc,etc.Quite a few are from aboriginal communities.

These kids have never had a chance in life,so turning them around will,unfortunately,be very difficult,and may never happen.

I don't think the system is doing the best to help them either,but as others have said,every situation is difficult and complicated.

But it is still no excuse to not get them to have respect and discipline.IMHO,with out it they have no hope at all.

And here is another example following on from sorting out nuisance kids in Pickles2 post.

We lived in North Qld for many years,and the maintenance manager for one of the hi rise buildings was having trouble with a group of boys from the local private school peeing all over the floor in the ground floor toilets most days,on their way home from school.
One day he hid in a cubicle and caught them at it.He made them take their shirts off,wipe it all up,and put their shirts back on.They never did it again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pickles2

And it wasn't always easy, but it's just what one does for one's children, if one REALLY cares, and is prepared to put in the time.
Pickles.

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Nail and head, mate. We may have differing views on many things, but I think we've found some common ground.
Like you, we've been complemented on the behaviour of our kids. Ironically, the greatest complement came from a head teller who came to the public side of the counter to remark upon our kids who waited for us patiently, while we had an interview with the manager.
It didn't help us get the loan we were after. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by V8Ian

Nail and head, mate. We may have differing views on many things, but I think we've found some common ground.
Like you, we've been complemented on the behaviour of our kids. Ironically, the greatest complement came from a head teller who came to the public side of the counter to remark upon our kids who waited for us patiently, while we had an interview with the manager.
It didn't help us get the loan we were after. :D

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"Head Teller"?.......Could've been me!!!,...."Teller" one of the first, & best, jobs I ever had in the Bank,...Loved it!!
Pickles