Thread: WHO ARE OUR REAL ENEMIES?

Originally Posted by Wraithe

I am appalled by some comments and the lack of understanding about the history of dawn service... One thing you learn when you join any of the services, is the meaning of ANZAC day and dawn service...

Its not a celebration, not a day for the public or the government. Its the day that ex and serving members of the services involved in war, remember their mates...



One last thing, people make an issue about remembering those that served, whether returned or not, on ANZAC day, but forget about us for the rest of the year... very convenient isn't it?

I know where you are coming from, but do not agree with the sentiment. And I too, note the number of people turning Anzac Day into a circus. Two things. In November, is remembrance day. To remember all those who died in WW1, from all Nations . How many of the people who hang on the shirt tails of the Anzacs, ie bask in their glory, actually pay homage on that day. Second, how long before we have marching girls and American style marching bands on the day. I served for 21 years, Vietnam service, Great grandfather and Grandfather in WW1, Father in WW2 uncle in Korea [KIA MM], cousins in Malaya / Vietnam. I know what Anzac Day is about. It is not a funeral . It is about respect. Respect yourself.

I was in London for Remembrance Day five years ago and attended the service in central London led by the Queen. They sure know how to do a solemn and respectful service. Definitely no marching girls.

This damn subject came up again today...

A senior service friend and I where discussing the history of Dawn service...

Now we may be wrong as I haven't done anything to confirm the dates and we are all suffering "Old Timers"...

1923 was the first Dawn service.. We are not sure but we think it spread nation wide within a couple of years of that date...

Can't remember the number of WW1 veterans at the first Dawn Service, it may have been only half a dozen or so...

Bob10, hope you don't mind, we discussed the issue of how to best describe the day, and I explained what I wrote, trying to get across to people the meaning of Anzac day... My friend said the same as you "not a funeral", so i got told off(damn foot in mouth), anyway we thought about this and yes remembrance but my friend said something else about explaining it to civvies and now I am suffering old timers again, cause I cant remember what he said...

Hopefully I remember tomorrow, because it was a perfect description for people to understand...

All those that thanked me, please don't... This is a subject about a day for those that are not here and those that still are... Their day needs remembering for what they gave this country, not I...

Originally Posted by Wraithe

This damn subject came up again today...

A senior service friend and I where discussing the history of Dawn service...

Now we may be wrong as I haven't done anything to confirm the dates and we are all suffering "Old Timers"...

1923 was the first Dawn service.. We are not sure but we think it spread nation wide within a couple of years of that date...

Can't remember the number of WW1 veterans at the first Dawn Service, it may have been only half a dozen or so...

Bob10, hope you don't mind, we discussed the issue of how to best describe the day, and I explained what I wrote, trying to get across to people the meaning of Anzac day... My friend said the same as you "not a funeral", so i got told off(damn foot in mouth), anyway we thought about this and yes remembrance but my friend said something else about explaining it to civvies and now I am suffering old timers again, cause I cant remember what he said...

Hopefully I remember tomorrow, because it was a perfect description for people to understand...

All those that thanked me, please don't... This is a subject about a day for those that are not here and those that still are... Their day needs remembering for what they gave this country, not I...

It's all good , mate. The day means different things to different people. We are not all the same. As long as we remember.

The A.W.M.'s official take on Anzac Day. A wreath laying and requiem Mass was held at Albany in 1918, and a dawn ceremony held at Toowoomba the following year. Apparently dawn ceremonies were held unofficially all over the country, with the first official dawn service being recognised at Sydney cenotaph in 1927.

The Anzac Day tradition | Australian War Memorial

So my copy of 'Kokoda' by Paul Ham arrived and I've just started reading and what a great read it is.
One of the first points he makes was that our intelligence knew the Japanese were planning to move around and attack Port Moresby, but Macarthur scoffed at the idea they might make a land attack because of the terrible terrain and assumed they would come by sea, which was totally wrong.
Another point Ham makes is that, based on various senior Japanese sources, it is now known that Japan did not intend to invade Australia because the command believed it did not have the supply lines in place to support the large army required to successfully invade.
Instead, the Japanese aim was to use PNG and specifically Port Moresby as a base to block Australian sea routes and prevent the USA from using Australia as a base to support its campaign to win back The Philippines, which Macarthur had staked his career on recapturing, and other Japanese conquests in the Pacific.
Interesting.

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

One of the first points he makes was that our intelligence knew the Japanese were planning to move around and attack Port Moresby, but Macarthur scoffed at the idea they might make a land attack because of the terrible terrain and assumed they would come by sea, which was totally wrong.

Well that is not correct - there was supposed to be a sea borne landing from the Coral Sea - it all came unstuck with the Battle of the Coral Sea that killed off the ability of the Japanese to mount a sea borne attack against Port Moresby - soon after the Japanese came across the Owen Stanley to attack Port Moresby from the north.

I agree the land attack might have been a surprise but the main thrust was always to come from the sea that the Battle of Coral Sea prevented.

Originally Posted by garrycol

Well that is not correct - there was supposed to be a sea borne landing from the Coral Sea - it all came unstuck with the Battle of the Coral Sea that killed off the ability of the Japanese to mount a sea borne attack against Port Moresby - soon after the Japanese came across the Owen Stanley to attack Port Moresby from the north.

I agree the land attack might have been a surprise but the main thrust was always to come from the sea that the Battle of Coral Sea prevented.

Maybe. The Battle of the Coral Sea cost the Japanese one carrier and stopped that attempt at a major seaborne invasion of Port Moresby. The loss of four aircraft carriers in the Battle of Midway was another huge blow to their capabilities.

Coral Sea: Overview

However, did it make another seaborne invasion impossible? It was the Japanese carrier protection fleet, not the actual invasion fleet heading for Port Moresby, which was attacked in the Battle of the Coral Sea. Losing the protective carrier apparently caused the Japanese to halt the invasion fleet, but they still had plenty of ships and troops, at least until the much larger losses in the Midway battle. I guess the fact they instead decided to land troops to attempt a land invasion indicates they had thought better of a seaborne invasion.

Still, their base at Rabaul gave them a range of about 800 kilometres, which included both Port Moresby and Cairns. They still had enough ships and troops to land at Gona, where they intended to send in 10,000 troops, to start the advance along the Kokoda. If they had managed to send 10,000 by sea into Port Moresby it would have been hard to stop, particularly if they had continued their bombing of the Port Moresby airport, which knocked out a large number of Allied aircraft.

Also, the land force did reach the ridges overlooking Port Moresby, when the commander General Horii received an order to retreat, which bitterly disappointed him. If the order to retreat had been delayed by even a couple of days and they had continued they might have taken the Port Moresby airfield and there might not have been any Allied counterattack along the Kokoda.
Anyway, it's interesting. I'll keep reading.

I think it's clear that Kokoda was really more important to the fate of Australia than Gallipoli, heroic though it was.

Interesting timeline here:
The Kokoda Track | Australians in World War II | The Pacific War | About the Kokoda Track: 1942 and Today | A Kokoda Chronology