Thread: Will they ever learn?

Same as cuppabillyteas post above, show me how you can safely get 2 strap eyes on a winch hook without one on top of the other, which will cause one eye to take more of the load than the other and damage the strap eyes, also the winch hook is only to be loaded in the belly of the hook, with 2 strap eyes fitted the end of the hook will be overloaded and how do you get the safety clip[ to work properly, loading a winch hook up like this could make the hook the weakest link, please just use your noggin and think before you act, Regards Frank.

IF both of the eyes that are loaded into the hook were coming from a "Fixed" position I would agree with you that by having one eye on top of the other would make the load uneven.
However the trunk protector is a single strap that will even itself out under strain because both of the eyes will be pulling against each other So it really doesn't matter if one strap is under the other because the strain on each eye will be the same.
If you have a problem with this then you could simply remove the hook and use a "D" shackle in its place, Either way you will have removed unnecessary hardware from the pull.

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

I have never used a hook on a vehicle winch cable .A shackle pin being larger is much kinder to the thimble so haver seen the point of a hook .Frank and I have finaly found something to agree on the slings go to the bow

AM

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

Originally Posted by cuppabillytea

Frank, you are a rigger with vast experience who's word is gospel as far as I'm concerned, but your average people don't go equiped to the extent that you do. They are not going to shim the pin and the end result will be ugly.
If you were putting the shackle on a pad eye, how would you do it, or for that matter a couple of thimble ends?

I have only ever once used shims to prevent a shackle sliding on it's pin in over 40 years of rigging as it was required to satisfy an insurance company while I was turning a 50 tonne ball mill end for end, even though we had a spreader beam that kept the shackle perpindicular to the beam.
My point is that it is safer to have the strap eyes in the bow of the shackle than jambed up on top of one another or being jambed into a winch hook, this is reason BOW shackles exist, to your other point if the pad eye or thimble ends fitted on the pin without jambing up, no problem fitting on the pin, probably find the thimble ends wouldn't fit on the body of the shackle anyway, usually the part where the pin goes through would be bigger than the thimble eyes, on the pin no trouble as long as the fitted between the width of the shackle body where the pin goes, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by cuppabillytea

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

Throw the hook overboard sling in the bow and shackle pin thru the rope thimble Nah do what you gotta do



AM

Originally Posted by cuppabillytea

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wireand you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

Do you still use that?
I learned to do figure 8 mousing with string but the skill became redundant when open hooks were outlawed and replaced with self mousing ones.
I presume the large hooks you play with are still open?

Originally Posted by cuppabillytea

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

I have answered your previous post but you have posted before I finished it.
What is more dangerous is people thinking that jambing 2 eyes of a strap onto a pin of a shackle or a hook on a winch cable is quite alright, it is the norm after all, well it's probably as dangerous as anything else done in 4WD recovery. When you start using rigging gear for purposes it wasn't designed for you reach it's limit of destruction very quickly.
Use the equipment as it was designed to be used and there will not be a problem, eyes of a fibre strap are designed wide to support a load, twist the eyes and load one on top of another and you are way outside their design parameters and into the danger zone.
Unless you have a VERY wide Bow shackle and a very skinny winch hook I can see NO problem with the hook sliding side to side on the shackle pin, I have never had this problem.
If I had an anchor strap and the eyes were to big to fit on the winch hook, I could do 2 things, 1 fit a bow shackle to the hook and strap or 2 join the eyes of the anchor strap with a shackle around the anchor point and fit the centre section of the strap to the hook.
I don't use a hook on my wire winch cable, I use a shackle and I would recommend everyone ditch their hook and fit a good sized (Rated) shackle, reason being, compare the diameter of the clevis pin that the cable or rope is attached to the hook with, compare that to the dia. of the pin in the shackle, most breakages occur at that point of contact, with the clevis pin likened to a knife edge and the shackle pin compared to a really really blunt knife edge, all winch cable/rope eyes connecting to the shackle or clevis pin should have a protective thimble, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by Tank

[...]
I really can't understand why you can't (or don't want to) grasp the simple laws of Physics and the simple FACT is that there is NO MA from an anchored,i.e. NOT MOVING snatch block, where are these magical powers coming from with YOUR snatch block, all an anchored snatch block does is change the line of pull to disadvantage, if you and others can't see that then that's your problem, not mine, Regards Frank.

Lets say 2 operators are stuck fast. Both operators runs a winch cable out to a block tied to a tree (tree protector for sure) and back to his own vehicle.

So we have two individual and unconnected situations here. One a duplicate of the other. Both operators start to winch in.

Operator A: smiles as his vehicle starts to move towards the tree as planned. (There is a suggestion by some that in this scenario there is no MA as the block is not moving)

Operator B: to his surprise sees his tree is uprooted and starts to move towards the vehicle, the vehicle still stuck fast.

Does it matter at all? Does it change the physics at all? That in one case above the block is moving and in the other case it is not?

No.

Unlike Operators A & B above, these next two fellers (C&D) rig differently and see different results:
Operator C: runs his winch rope off the winch drum, out through a block attached to a tree, and thence to a fixed anchor point that is not attached to his vehicle. (like a stake in the ground.

Operator D: runs his winch rope off the winch drum, out through a block attached to a tree, and thence back to his vehicle.

Operator C: is effectively using his block to simply change direction of pull. No MA. If he winches in 2M of wire rope onto his winch drum, his vehicle will have moved 2M forward.

Operator D: (like both operators A & B above) is rigged 2:1 MA. If he winches in 2M of wire rope onto his winch drum, his vehicle will have moved 1M forward assuming the tree didn't uproot.

Originally Posted by V8Ian

Do you still use that?
I learned to do figure 8 mousing with string but the skill became redundant when open hooks were outlawed and replaced with self mousing ones.
I presume the large hooks you play with are still open?

We don't mouse hooks anymore. I doubt that you'd find a compatible hook. We mouse all the shackle pins used in a sea tow because the load and angle of pull is constantly changing, everything is always wet and they can unscrew themselves.

Originally Posted by Tank

I have answered your previous post but you have posted before I finished it.
What is more dangerous is people thinking that jambing 2 eyes of a strap onto a pin of a shackle or a hook on a winch cable is quite alright, it is the norm after all, well it's probably as dangerous as anything else done in 4WD recovery. When you start using rigging gear for purposes it wasn't designed for you reach it's limit of destruction very quickly.
Use the equipment as it was designed to be used and there will not be a problem, eyes of a fibre strap are designed wide to support a load, twist the eyes and load one on top of another and you are way outside their design parameters and into the danger zone.
Unless you have a VERY wide Bow shackle and a very skinny winch hook I can see NO problem with the hook sliding side to side on the shackle pin, I have never had this problem.
If I had an anchor strap and the eyes were to big to fit on the winch hook, I could do 2 things, 1 fit a bow shackle to the hook and strap or 2 join the eyes of the anchor strap with a shackle around the anchor point and fit the centre section of the strap to the hook.
I don't use a hook on my wire winch cable, I use a shackle and I would recommend everyone ditch their hook and fit a good sized (Rated) shackle, reason being, compare the diameter of the clevis pin that the cable or rope is attached to the hook with, compare that to the dia. of the pin in the shackle, most breakages occur at that point of contact, with the clevis pin likened to a knife edge and the shackle pin compared to a really really blunt knife edge, all winch cable/rope eyes connecting to the shackle or clevis pin should have a protective thimble, Regards Frank.

The eyes on my flat slings are gathered in and shrouded, which makes them more like a rope. I have seen the result of a Shackle pulled sideways. It was a D shackle to be fare and also to be fair it was full of rope. While we're being fair it was also NOT rigged by a rigger. Also to be fair I didn't actually see the incident.
It was a 100 Ton Shackle and, allegedly it failed at 60 Ton. I have my doubts about the evidence bothe anecdotal and physical but it still makes me nervous about the prospect of a Shackle going sideways.
I agree that hooks on a winch wire or rope are not ideal and probably shouldn't be supplied that way.

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

Throw the hook overboard sling in the bow and shackle pin thru the rope thimble Nah do what you gotta do



AM

Probably throw the shackle overboard.