Will they ever learn?

**DeanoH** · 2nd July 2017, 05:19 PM

It's a tragedy that the young fellow was killed in that recovery 'accident', ignorance of safe recovery procedures is very common and I partly blame the tossers in the 'how not to unbog your Landcruiser video'. These two, lets call them T1 and T2 put themselves up as the macho sleeves ripped out off road road experts. Nothing could be further from the truth, but unfortunately people watch their videos and reckon they know what they're doing.

This is the second T1 & T2 video I've seen. In the first these two idiots were traveling down a bush track with a large quad bike mounted across the tray and were quite surprised when they managed to trash the quads guards and lights on overhanging trees. Their solution, T1 gets the chainsaw out and starts to demolish the bush to get the vehicle and quad combo driven by T2 through, environmentally conscious these two tossers are not. A more sensible solution would have been to unload the quad and driven it out or to have mounted it 'north-south' in the first place. I particularly liked the video of chainsaw expert T1 walking down the track chainsaw over shoulder and holding it by the uncovered bar and chain.

This was soon followed by bogging the heavily loaded vehicle in soft sand, pity they didn't let the tyres down before venturing onto the soft sand or prior to their winch recovery even though the commentary states they did so prior to recovery. I guess they forgot

but added it at the editing stage.

The second video speaks for itself, you didn't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to know it was all about to go pear shaped as (T1 or T2) cleverly goes right hand down just before he can get better purchase on the tussocks. Hopefully he wasn't injured.

Idiots like these two who portray themselves as competent off road travelers set a very bad example to to the viewing audience who may try to emulate their antics thinking it is the right thing to do. Irresponsibly stupid IMO.

Deano.

**Ancient Mariner** · 2nd July 2017, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by johntins

I'm really not sure I understand the question. It is simple physics. There is "force in", that is, how much force I am applying, and "force out", which is what is applied to the load. One simple moving pulley, as opposed to a fixed pulley, halves the amount of "force in" required for the same "force out". This is easily demonstrated, and is taught these days in primary school.

MA = Force out divided by force in. Pretty simple, really.

This vid as a little long, but demonstrates it nicely.

This one's a bit annoying, but the demo is clear when you get to it.

The principle is exactly the same as you have in gearboxes and transfer cases.

Apology if you know all this. Maybe rephrase your question.

?Oh Hey There!? 19: Winching: Load Reduction, Single Snatch Block - YouTube see if this works

**Tins** · 2nd July 2017, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

?Oh Hey There!? 19: Winching: Load Reduction, Single Snatch Block - YouTube see if this works

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

This one is quite childish in a way, but get's the point across.

Wraithe · 2nd July 2017, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by johntins

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

One thing about your original reply in regards to these comments, John...

You pointed to the M113A1, and reply was quote about a Toyota ?

Mmm I think someone dont know the weight of an M113A1 in regards to a cruiser...

You should have pointed out that an M113A1 weighs around 11 tonne and the cruiser would be lucky to break 3 tonne fully loaded...

You'll only get a head ache banging your head against the wall...

Your reply to my post, hand throttles in the Army F3's and F5's and Landy's where necessary due to them being petrol's, thus idle has no torque... Most petrols of old, needed the hand throttle(carbies)...
New petrols can maintain some torque as the fuel system and computer will apply some throttle to stop stalling...

Mechanical Diesels on the other hand don't directly connect to the throttle but connect to a governor, so when idling if load increases, so does fuel and thus it will maintain power to match the governor setting...(internally it has a rack that is controlled by governor and throttle controls governor position(basic way of explaining, there are different pumps but principle is the same)...

Modern diesels are like modern petrols, so they are simular to each other...

I do miss the toys we could drive in the Army... My toy had tracks and a better suspension than the M113's and also weighed nearly 4 times as much... What civies dont know is the damn thing floated on mud, even tho the tracks would hang and work like paddles... Not bad for a brick in water...

Wraithe · 2nd July 2017, 10:34 PM

Russell Coight... Love his show...

I learn new things all the time, must practice his boat launching techniques...

I dont think he does very well with the girls tho...

Now he has some real good ideas about how to remove bumper bars and collect spare parts...

**Ancient Mariner** · 3rd July 2017, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by johntins

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

This one is quite childish in a way, but get's the point across.

You and Tank are right a fixed pulley gives no MA only a change of direction So I will change the senario for the thick amongst us .I have bogged my defender .I run out the winch cable and instead of using a tree protector I use my 34000 lb kinetic rope to anchor the SB.The rope goes from the winch thru the block and back to the defender .I start winching and the block moves (moving block) 2 to 1.I reach the elastic limit of my kinetic rope and the defender starts moving.The block has changed from a moving to a fixed but for every 2m I winch in I only move 1m .What ???? If you cant see this you have made tank a happy man .(Some one as thick as him)

Bye Bye
AM

**trout1105** · 3rd July 2017, 11:55 AM

All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

I didn't know that, I always just assumed that adding a single snatch block to the mix gave me a MA.
How I now read this is that the snatch block should be attached to the bogged vehicle and either pulled out by another vehicles winch or two snatch blocks are employed to enable the bogged vehicle to use its own winch.

**Tank** · 3rd July 2017, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

You have just bogged the 6x6 .From your winch you run the cable to a bloody big gumtree and via Tree protector

hook it up .You then start winching and bugger shear pin breaks .You fix the shear pin attach your single snatch block to the gum tree run the cable thru the block and back to your RP on the bumper.You then start winching pull yourself out and don't break the shear pin Luck or MA ?

AM

Yes MA, but from the fact that you have twice the amount of cable out off the winch drum, the closer to the winch drum surface the easier it is to winch. Winches are rated for line pull and the highest line pull is with the winch drum almost empty, a drum with say 10 layers of rope will have about half the pulling power as a winch with one layer of rope.
The snatch block actually adds to the load via friction on the pulley shaft.
I really can't understand why you can't (or don't want to) grasp the simple laws of Physics and the simple FACT is that there is NO MA from an anchored,i.e. NOT MOVING snatch block, where are these magical powers coming from with YOUR snatch block, all an anchored snatch block does is change the line of pull to disadvantage, if you and others can't see that then that's your problem, not mine, Regards Frank.

**Tins** · 3rd July 2017, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner

You and Tank are right a fixed pulley gives no MA only a change of direction So I will change the senario for the thick amongst us .I have bogged my defender .I run out the winch cable and instead of using a tree protector I use my 34000 lb kinetic rope to anchor the SB.The rope goes from the winch thru the block and back to the defender .I start winching and the block moves (moving block) 2 to 1.I reach the elastic limit of my kinetic rope and the defender starts moving.The block has changed from a moving to a fixed but for every 2m I winch in I only move 1m .What ???? If you cant see this you have made tank a happy man .(Some one as thick as him)

Bye Bye
AM

If you can't express your argument clearly, and without insult, I think you're a bit premature in calling me names, AM. I was having a friendly discussion, or so I thought. You haven't argued any of the points raised by me or the very simple vids I posted.

Let me know when you are interested in a debate and not mud slinging. I'll still be here.

Oh, and who brought kinetic rope into this?

**Tins** · 3rd July 2017, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by trout1105

I didn't know that, I always just assumed that adding a single snatch block to the mix gave me a MA.
How I now read this is that the snatch block should be attached to the bogged vehicle and either pulled out by another vehicles winch or two snatch blocks are employed to enable the bogged vehicle to use its own winch.

The simples vid I posted shows it clearly. The newtons required to lift the block are exactly the same on a straight lift as they are when the line is passed over a fixed pulley. It's all there to see for those who care to look.

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