Thread: Sadly our history has some very dark parts

You don’t know much about communism obviously amongst other things....

Originally Posted by Zeros

One rule for all = communism.

Originally Posted by incisor

You don’t know much about communism obviously amongst other things....

If you have read "Animal Farm", you will know that under communism, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

Originally Posted by Ean Austral

That's proberly the most racist comment in this thread . I actually thought it was a scheme designed to help people of all walks of life to break the cycle and give them a chance to improve their circumstances if that is the path they wanted to follow.
No one was forced to work - they weren't dragged out in chains , but they were paid the award wage for the job they were doing and it got them out of the prison system which a lot of people seem to think is what is dragging people down.

From where I sit , the only people who are breaking down the so called tribal system are the younger members of the tribe. That's just my view of course and I have no issue's with people not agreeing with it.

Cheers Ean

Yes, you're right, it was a brief and flippant response, as I was engrossed in the tennis, so sorry about that.
What I meant was that we have a national youth problem and the participants in your scheme are examples of that. Society isn't generating the entry level jobs needed to meet the demand because many of those jobs are being automated or exported and not everyone wants to be in hospitality, retail or aged care. Trade training funding has also been slashed and companies and governments aren't creating the apprenticeships that used to exist in the past.
Your scheme is a welcome example of an attempt to break the cycle, as you say, but what we actually need is to go back a step and prevent the cycle. That's easier said than done, of course. The genie is well and truly out of the bottle and can't be put back.
In Aboriginal terms, the past has broken down and is difficult to revive. It can only work if the people involved own the process. Forcing people into a scheme designed in Canberra may not work unless the tribe wants it. This isn't surprising as its also true in wider society. How many outside schemes are being run in our local areas with limited success because the locals haven't embraced them? It's very difficult.
So, it's great that schemes such as yours have been tried and I'm sure some people did benefit. Kudos for having a go.

I don't want to spoil this discussion with facts, but it is worthwhile to have an understanding of where this all started.

The Land - Australian Museum

Originally Posted by PhilipA

The Mabo judgment was made over the land rights of Torres Strait islanders who have a completely different culture of land ownership to Aboriginals who AFAIK have NO traditional idea of land ownership.

Nevertheless about 50% of Australia has now been gifted to Aboriginals by "progressive" governments and judiciary and other citizens of Australia have been in many cases banned from visiting these places , or requiring permits.

In most cases where land has been given to aboriginals as cleared productive land like operating cattle and sheep stations it has quickly fallen into disrepair causing the "giftees" to return to their life of indolence on the dole.



Regards Philip A

I do not agree with any of those points, although the aboriginal philosophy on land ownership is worthy of debate. It is certainly not aligned to European values . I do agree that most of mainstream Australia does agree with you. For my part, I can give an example of a success story,
regarding aboriginal cattle stations. I'm sure there are more. To validate your claim, can you give example/examples of failures. I am interested in finding out



.Wave Hill

The issue of Aboriginal land rights was first brought to national attention in 1966, when 200 Gurindji stockmen, domestics and their families walked off the Wave Hill cattle station in the Northern Territory demanding better wages and conditions. The strike, led by Vincent Lingiari, was the catalyst for two decades of struggle as Gurindji people battled to regain control of traditional lands and establish their own cattle station.
In 1967, Gurindji people petitioned the Governor-General, claiming 1295 square kilometres of land near Wave Hill. Their claim was rejected, but in 1975, they won a lease for their land. This, along with 90 square kilometres of land voluntarily surrendered by Wave Hill owners, became Dagaragu cattle station.
In 1985, following a recommendation from Justice Toohey of the Aboriginal Land Commission that the Gurindji be granted traditional land adjacent to Dagaragu, the Gurindji lease was converted to freehold.
The decision was an important milestone in the land rights struggle - as was Dagaragu, the first Aboriginal owned and managed cattle station.


Noonkanbah

"To expect us to tell you everything in our Law in one day is arrogant. The State Government has not given us a proper hearing... Instead of talking you should have been listening; instead of assuming you had all the knowledge, you should have been trying to learn."
Yungngora Community letter to Premier Court, Western Australia.

In 1971 the Yungngora people employed on Noonkanbah station walked off in protest over poor pay and conditions. Then in 1976, the Aboriginal Land Fund Commission bought Noonkanbah station for the Yungngora community, and the work of revitalising the station under Aboriginal management was begun.
In May 1978, the Yungngora community learned that an exploration company was intending to drill on areas sacred to them. The Yungngora people offered to show drillers alternative sites from the sacred areas. This was refused.
The Western Australian Government was determined that the exploration should proceed and claimed that the religious beliefs of the Yungngora had been "trumped up" or inspired by outside influences.
After court action by the Aboriginal Legal Service, the mining company was required to protect the sacred places. When this was not done satisfactorily, the community blocked access. Elders used media coverage of the blockade to explain their religious beliefs and the importance of the sites. In April 1980, the drillers were finally forced to leave the site.
In August 1981, the Western Australian Government enforced, by law, its rights to oil exploration drilling. The Government provided a heavy police escort so that drilling could continue in the area of the sacred site. The Yungngora resisted peacefully but in vain. Many were arrested and the drilling went ahead.
No oil was discovered.

OK,
Kulumburu was run as a Catholic mission for many years and aboriginals supplied with modest housing by the mission and employed as stockmen on the working cattle station.
The WA government sent lawyers to tell the people they were being exploited by the Catholic Church. Subsequently the houses supplied by the mission were torn down and replaced by much more grandiose houses.

When I visited a few years ago there was no farming activity that I could see, youth was living on the dole. A sign in the Aboriginal owned supermarket prohibited kids of school age from the supermarket because of shoplifting, change was given in packs of cards.

We waited at the counter for work to resume at 2pm after lunch and at about 2.30 an islander woman who was the wife of the manager turned up and proceeded to have a heated argument with the staff who then dribbled in and should have resumed work at 2.00PM. We had to buy a permit for AFAIR $40 to visit the camping ground at Honeymoon Bay.

There was a sign in the office saying "pay $1500 per years in rent and maintenance will be done on houses" which indicated to me that no rent was paid.
I entered the Mission store and conversed with the volunteers who pointed out a girl who had been seen to have potential and was given a fully funded scholarship to a Catholic High School in Perth. She lasted six months before her parents demanded she return home as they missed her. She was wandering around with nothing to do.

Gumbanan at One arm Point Cape Leveque
As we were takin a rigid inflatable to the horizontal waterfall which left from Cooljaman we camped at Gumbanan retreat which is aboriginal run.
We were charged $38 per night AFAIR. The toilets were 1.5Km from the campsite and there were cold showers which had been built for an aboriginal convention some time earlier and not maintained.
We found a campsite and then found human faeces strewn about in many places around our campsite which I proceeded to bury. There was a deep sand bog adjacent to the campsite.

The aboriginal manager to his credit gave spear lessons to kids , however the lack of basic appreciation of hygiene was appalling.
It may have changed since our visit about 5 years ago but my overriding impression is that the traditional owners wanted the money but were unwilling to do anything for it. 4x4 Australia recently listed it as a top campsite so maybe it has changed.

I have numerous other examples of aboriginal lassitude but those are a couple that stick out in my memory.

I have worked with a Wyadjri man to try and build a cultural centre for work by inmates of Bathurst jail only to be frustrated first by his insistence that his wife and daughter be placed on the board with no experience or qualifications and secondly by the attitude of the Wyadjri land council who vetoed his proposal because it might conflict with another planned centre in Dubbo. Also at issue was the fact that his mother was not Wyadjri so he was not considered to be full Wyadjri.

IMHO the greatest enemy that aboriginals have is other aboriginals not the rest of the population.






Regards Philip A

Originally Posted by Zeros

One rule for all = communism.

Not sure if you take your own advice?

Originally Posted by Zeros

It's never helpful to generalise. I find it symptomatic of narcissism. The presumption that everyone else should think, act, see, the world like oneself does, is worth growing out of.

Originally Posted by Zeros

Nope. Your interpretations of 'Australia', 'Tribe' and 'All', are entirely different from mine. I'll never be in your tribe.

Vive le difference.

I Never said that everyone has to act the same and have the same beliefs and lifestyle.
What I am saying is that we are ALL Australians and we should all treat each other equally regardless of race, colour, creed or religion But we are ALL obliged to follow the rule of Law.
If you are not of a similar mindset then I wouldn't want you in our "tribe" anyway.