Holden - how long before the end?

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Originally Posted by Tombie

Only thing that kept them selling:

Step 1: Take big boofy V8 and Jam into body
Step 2: Jam nice wheels on
Step 3: market to testosterone fueled Males

They can’t tow anything serious, they can’t carry anything serious, so they’re just an audible boofhead machine... no legal practical capability at all...

Further evidence of this is the American solution - more power through bigger size. Shows a great lack of engineering prowess by the designers - where Europe develops high output V8s of much smaller capacities the USA solution is just more displacement.

Sure, I did the whole V8 thing...
VK Director
XE ESP 351
XC GS Panel Van
D1 5.0 Stroker with Powerdyne Blower
And a few others...

But they were, in hindsight, nothing but Ego strokers...

Holden kept this mindset and lost its core clients - capability, comfort, features, quality and frugal performance...

Long gone are the days of the family towing the Viscount with the Holden/Ford Sedan/Wagon... modern stuff just couldn’t do it...

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That's a bit like saying " The D3 or D4 was built for Soccer mums and Latte drinkers! " . How can you say they have frugal performance? Have you seen the figures the LS motor makes? You really can't compare your supercharged Disco to an LS. There is no comparison. Why is the V8 an ego stroker? What if you have a RRS supercharged. What does that make them? An ego stroked toorak tractor, soccer mum, driving Latte drinker. [biggrin]

I had a VX Calais with an LS1 and mafless tune. It would do 9s on the freeway and 13s around town. And of course if you drove it hard it would do a lot worse. No worse then any other Euro V8. Towed my Rover SD1 with it...air con on on full blast on a hot day. Averaged low 13s cruising on freeway and towed it bloody easy. I must be very testosteroned fueled.[bigwhistle]

Sometimes you just get sick of the clack clack clack of a diesel engine. [thumbsupbig]

You must have the only LS1 I’ve ever heard of that was that frugal... especially towing. [emoji41]

And yes, they’re ego engines... the V6 makes more power and torque than the old GTSR did.. we’ve just kept the V8 thing - it’s a caveman feeling...

I admitted I’ve had V8s. And they were fun, and they sounded “cool”... I’m just saying there is no need for them, just a want [emoji12]

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Originally Posted by Tombie

You must have the only LS1 I’ve ever heard of that was that frugal... especially towing. [emoji41]

And yes, they’re ego engines... the V6 makes more power and torque than the old GTSR did.. we’ve just kept the V8 thing - it’s a caveman feeling...

I admitted I’ve had V8s. And they were fun, and they sounded “cool”... I’m just saying there is no need for them, just a want [emoji12]

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It`s not new nor uncommon for ls1`s being frugal on fuel .
I have seen a lot running sub 10`s hell even the injected 5 lt`s on a trip would do the same .
Drive them hard and it was a totally different world .
You might as well start comparing t model ford`s to the Barra engine [bigrolf]
You should not compare the old GTSR to the latter v6`s totally different technology horse`s for course`s .
And im not a fan of the push rod ls motor`s but they do perform well for what they are [wink11]

Globalisation means that a lot of manufacturing goes to countries with low wages, that are non unionised, and less safe.

Its good for big business. It can be good for consumers.

Is it overall good for developed economies?

LS1 is awesome.
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Originally Posted by SPROVER

What if you have a RRS supercharged. What does that make them? An ego stroked toorak tractor, soccer mum, driving Latte drinker.

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Spot on. [emoji38]

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Originally Posted by rangieman

Each to their own but i was in the frying pan so pretty much no exactly what was going on .
Yes GM Detroit had the say at the end of the day but it is not what you are referring to sorry to say [tonguewink]

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All good, I stick with what I said, and that is, that is that Detroit always had a say, but for the last 10 years or so after Peter left, they basically set the direction.
HOWEVER, I was NOT "in the frying pan" so to speak, I was close, but maybe, I was "on the stove" relative to where you were, so if you think you know what, in your mind, REALLY went on, then I know I, & possibly other contributors to this thread, would love to be enlightened. So please, if you disagree, I'd love to know your version.
Pickles.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

You must have the only LS1 I’ve ever heard of that was that frugal... especially towing. [emoji41]

And yes, they’re ego engines... the V6 makes more power and torque than the old GTSR did.. we’ve just kept the V8 thing - it’s a caveman feeling...

I admitted I’ve had V8s. And they were fun, and they sounded “cool”... I’m just saying there is no need for them, just a want [emoji12]

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Don't think thats the case at all.

Some like to have them,for many reasons,maybe its just what they want.

Have a look at the V8 sales in the commodore range for the last couple of years,heaps.

I have had them as well,definitely no cave man feeling.

Cant see people with D4 V8 or RRS,RR V8,TDv8,Y62 having a cave man feeling.

The petrol V8 are way simpler than some supercharged or turbo V6.

Some like older tech,and simplicity rather than complication.

That SS 5litre i had did under 10l/100 on a highway run no problems at all.No worse than my D4.
Around town 14L/100,D4 does around 12.5l/100 at best.

But fuel usage isn't everything.

Anyway,just my 2 cents worth

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Originally Posted by scarry

Don't think thats the case at all.

Some like to have them,for many reasons,maybe its just what they want.

Have a look at the V8 sales in the commodore range for the last couple of years,heaps.

I have had them as well,definitely no cave man feeling.

Cant see people with D4 V8 or RRS,RR V8,TDv8,Y62 having a cave man feeling.

The petrol V8 are way simpler than some supercharged or turbo V6.

Some like older tech,and simplicity rather than complication.

That SS 5litre i had did under 10l/100 on a highway run no problems at all.No worse than my D4.
Around town 14L/100,D4 does around 12.5l/100 at best.

But fuel usage isn't everything.

Anyway,just my 2 cents worth

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Agree.
Of course everyone doesn't want or need a V8, just as most people don't want or need a LandRover, but both excellent for people that make that choice, because, as you say, that's what they want.
I think the "LS" range of engines are brilliant, had a 5.7L LS1 & a 6L LS2 in the past, prior to which we had several "Holden" V8s. We have now got a vehicle powered by the 435KW S.C. LSA, and it is definitely one of the most enjoyable engines I've experienced. So docile, lazy, it'll idle along all day, but when ya want to "put the pedal to the metal", it's still good, in a different way!
You're also spot on with your comment with respect to V8 Commodore sales, particularly after they dropped the LS3 in it!
Pickles.

And I agree...

I also accept that it’s all a WANT, a desire, something deep down that hits some base emotion.. something “Caveman”[emoji41]

Nobody *needs* a 435kw shopping trolley.
The simple (and HSV knew it) “I just want one” drive is what has kept passenger V8s from dying out..

Same applies in Motorcycle circles... small engines do amazing things, mid size engines do everything needed to get somebody into trouble, big cube engines hit some sort of emotive feeling.

It’s why even though the Euro/Jap Cruisers are more refined, more powerful and arguably more reliable there is a huge following that love that “Potato, Potato, Potato” sound of the offset V-Twin HD.

Again, nothing wrong with it - but it should be acknowledged [emoji48]