Thread: Horror heatwave blackout fears for Victoria

Originally Posted by Homestar

Yeah, that's why fracking is stuffing all the farm land up there. Gas is no better than coal IMO as far as the environmental damage it does extracting it. It's still a fossil fuel and not a long term answer.

Don't believe everything you hear.
Actually, I am told there is very little fracking because the gas comes from coal deposits which are soft and there is little need to frack, unlike in the USA where they have to crack hard rock.
Also, the wells go down at least 1000m so it is different water to the farm bore water, as farm bores are rarely more than 100 metres deep.
The gas bores have pipes in them and the holes are then filled with concrete, to prevent deep water or gas entering the surface water aquifer.
The deep water is surplus to the gas mining, so the companies run it through a filtration plant, which actually makes it too clean to put in rivers as it would suck the oxygen, then put it in dams so it gets dirtier, and then pump it back to the farmers who use it for irrigation. That is why the surrounding land is green, in contrast to the other areas, which are very brown and dry.
So it's a win-win for the farmers, who get paid well for having gas bores on their land plus they get water for irrigation, and for the economy, creating a lot of jobs and wealth.

Originally Posted by V8Ian

No doubt nuclear will be in the picture in the future.
The scary thing about it is, the incompetent bureaucracy that runs the generation industry now, will still be in charge.
Combine that with the cheapest tender from China and you have a disaster looking for somewhere to happen.
Still want it in your backyard Homestar.?

Happy to - Either way, no fuss with me. Thorium reactors can't go critical no matter what you do or **** up so that would be my first choice but if Australia decides it needs to enrich plutonium for weapons and go a different way, sure, I'm still happy with that.

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Don't believe everything you hear.
Actually, I am told there is very little fracking because the gas comes from coal deposits which are soft and there is little need to frack, unlike in the USA where they have to crack hard rock.
Also, the wells go down at least 1000m so it is different water to the farm bore water, as farm bores are rarely more than 100 metres deep.
The gas bores have pipes in them and the holes are then filled with concrete, to prevent deep water or gas entering the surface water aquifer.
The deep water is surplus to the gas mining, so the companies run it through a filtration plant, which actually makes it too clean to put in rivers as it would suck the oxygen, then put it in dams so it gets dirtier, and then pump it back to the farmers who use it for irrigation. That is why the surrounding land is green, in contrast to the other areas, which are very brown and dry.
So it's a win-win for the farmers, who get paid well for having gas bores on their land plus they get water for irrigation, and for the economy, creating a lot of jobs and wealth.

What? Told by who? Has something changed in the last couple of years? I'm sure the farmers up there have a very different viewpoint to yours.

A quick search shows that there are hundreds of articles on this and some papers proving how much land has been effected (lots) and how bad it is for said land. I also know people first hand who have been directly effected by fracking. A vote for gas development is a vote for ruining farmers lives - but sounds like you're happier with that than to let the coal stations continue to run.

Fracking must be outlawed now | Queensland Times

Hydraulic fracturing has been used in Queensland since at least the mid 1960s, although only fairly intensively in recent years. Like any development it is going to affect the land, but in Queensland at least, the effects have been very minor, especially when compared to the widespread land clearing for farming and grazing.

However, there has been a concerted campaign to demonise it, largely driven by NIMBY feelings plus those who are against any form of development, especially mining. It is promoted by activists from the USA, who somehow fail to appreciate that in this country, the owner of the surface has no mineral rights, nor, in general, any right to prevent a third party licenced by the state to extract minerals, only having a right to compensation for damages and loss of use (and sometimes this right is quite restricted).

Many of the ill effects attributed to "fracking" pre-existed. For example, gas bubbling from streams and in water supplies in some areas existed when I was there in 1963, and gas in underground water bores initiated the first petroleum exploration in Queensland in 1899. Most of the 'evidence' of ill effects comes from the USA, where it has been used far more intensively, on a vastly larger scale, and in quite different geology.

The same can not necessarily be said for the (as far as I know) only experiment in Qld into underground gasification, but here again, while not good, the ill effects are limited to quite small areas - and it is not the first time there have been underground fires in coal in Australia, some lasting for decades. (And expect more as it gets hotter, likely to result naturally wherever coal outcrops naturally in a bushfire prone area.)

I should also point out to Discomick that many farm bores in parts of Qld are over a kilometre deep, although possibly not in areas where coal seam gas is being extracted.

JD is correct. Many artesian water bores in Qld. are thousands of feet deep.

Link Energy were being run through the courts by the Qld. Govt. for major environmental damage and pollution. They (conveniently?) went into bankruptcy. I have a memory that some of the directors are facing criminal charges.

Originally Posted by Homestar

What? Told by who? Has something changed in the last couple of years? I'm sure the farmers up there have a very different viewpoint to yours.

A quick search shows that there are hundreds of articles on this and some papers proving how much land has been effected (lots) and how bad it is for said land. I also know people first hand who have been directly effected by fracking. A vote for gas development is a vote for ruining farmers lives - but sounds like you're happier with that than to let the coal stations continue to run.

Fracking must be outlawed now | Queensland Times

Because that's what actually happens. I've been there and seen it for myself. I also know people in the industry. Its not like in the USA, as JD pointed out.
The well depth figures I quoted were from real examples in the gas mining areas. There may be deeper wells around, of course. The point is the gas wells have pipes and concrete to seal them.
And I've seen the water treatment plants and the farms benefiting from the water returned to them for irrigation.
For example, fly into Miles and suddenly the brown country turns green.
The Link Energy plant was a completely different process, and a failure. Quite different to normal gas mining.

I think Link Energy may be the underground gasification scheme I mentioned above. This is a very different kettle of fish. The idea is that you do effectively the same as used to be done in producing gas from coal, burning it with insufficient air, only underground in the coal seam. As far as I know, it has never actually been done anywhere on a commercial scale, and always struck me as a rather risky procedure.

Originally Posted by V8Ian

No doubt nuclear will be in the picture in the future.
The scary thing about it is, the incompetent bureaucracy that runs the generation industry now, will still be in charge.
Combine that with the cheapest tender from China and you have a disaster looking for somewhere to happen.
Still want it in your backyard Homestar.?

I don't agree. Going nuclear for our power is the pre cursor for going nuclear in our submarines. That means drones that are in it for profit, or ripoff, will be on the outer. There will be no cheap Chinese rubbish, we will stick with our allies that have the technology, and fund the CSIRO scientists to bring them up to speed. Tell me I'm dreamin'.