Thread: Water/ gold divining, RU a sceptic, or believer?

There is no scientifically rigorous, doubly blind evidence that divining rods work.

The phenomenon is said to be caused by the “ideomotor effect”, where a person unconsciously performs actions because of prior expectations, suggestions or preconceptions.

It’s much like an Ouija board, where it feels like the pointer is moving itself, but in reality, the person holding it is making the small movements and pushing the object across the board.

“One theory for this is that the muscles in the body react to some electromagnetic effect caused by the presence of the metal or the water flowing; the rods then amplify this effect so that the searcher becomes aware of them.

“Another theory is that some diviners know from their experience and local knowledge where groundwater is likely to be located and subconsciously cause the reaction.”

Originally Posted by austastar

I'm still skeptically interested in the subject...

So was Dick Smith and James Randi. They designed experiments and put to the test a number of diviners (water, gold etc) during the 80's. All performed pretty much in line with chance, which for the experiment was ~10%. None performed anywhere near their claimed success rate which averaged at >90%. Anyway the report, methods and results are linked below. Have browse.

Australian Skeptics Divining Test

Surely if it worked, someone would have claimed James Randi's $10,000 or $40,000.

No-one has.
Australian Skeptics Divining Test – Australian Skeptics Inc

EDIT: Sorry about the duplication. It seems Ferret can type faster than I can.

It's the old 'burden of proof' idea in philosophy.

The maker of the claim carries the burden of proving it is the case.

Certainly an age old idea for whipping up some contention about esoteric ideas.

Personally I like the idea that a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence..that at least shortens the discussion :-)

Then of course there is lot of debate about what is 'evidence'....you cant equate anecdotal stuff with double blind trials.

In the end some people need a lot more quality evidence than others to reach some conclusion about something..we are strange primates.

Originally Posted by edddo

It's the old 'burden of proof' idea in philosophy.

The maker of the claim carries the burden of proving it is the case.

Certainly an age old idea for whipping up some contention about esoteric ideas.

Personally I like the idea that a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence..that at least shortens the discussion :-)

Then of course there is lot of debate about what is 'evidence'....you cant equate anecdotal stuff with double blind trials.

In the end some people need a lot more quality evidence than others to reach some conclusion about something..we are strange primates.

Edddo, I'm not convinced by what you're saying!

If you believe in any sort of divining/dowsing/esoteric philosophy it is your entitlement to do so.

Just don't try to force your will on non believers.

Skeptics and scientists will beat you down every time.

They have proof , you need proof.

Interestingly, last night I read an article on this very subject in the December issue of "Preview", a geophysical journal. It is interesting in that the author (whom I have known for sixty years) traces divining's long history. The earliest actual evidence of its existence that he could find was a 1518 denunciation by Luther, but it was almost certainly far older. In 1556 Georg Bauer (latinised as Georgius Agricola) published De Re Metallica. He describes dowsing , notes its lack of success, and urges readers to have nothing to do with it. In the seventeenth century Robert Boyle investigated it and dismissed it as fraudulent - successes were simply chance.

The most exhaustive tests appear to be those by James Randi and Dick Smith in Australia in 1980, in which dowsers were offered $40,000 for showing results better than would be expected by chance. The money remains unclaimed.

A Nieghbour of our recently decided to sink a bore and hired a diviner to find the best place for it.
They duly came and found the spot.
Only needed to drill some 80 metres apparently - cost a pretty penny.
Quite close to a creek.