Lithium Ion Batteries in motor vehicles....potential danger

**ramblingboy42** · 25th October 2021, 08:07 AM

I wanted to put this in a new thread to highlight the potential risk from these batteries.

I have just read an article about recycling lithium ion batteries from electric vehicles and am shocked at what has been revealed.

Already , many thousands of batteries have been recalled from vehicles and homes because of faults.

My biggest concern is the electrolyte used in these batteries which has an "un-named" salt which when brought into contact with water creates hydroflouric acid.

Hydroflouric acid is the most dangerous chemical known to man. It's potential is so high that hospitals have a special risk unit always ready in case of accidents with HF.

Petroleum refineries use HF as part of their catalyst in making fuel. If any of you , like I , have done refinery shutdowns , especially if you are anywhere near the catalyst area , you will have done the relevant induction on HF , which is enough to almost make you pack up and go home.

For example , during a shutdown at Brisbane's BP refinery , while disassembling some valvework on the catalyzer , I saw a "white snake" which visually indicates HF. I immediately contacted the emergency response who put out a general emergency alarm and all employees were immediately removed to safety zones while the response team came out in top dress and played water on the suspected area for about an hour. All emergency services and the hospital were stood to. This product is that dangerous. I recieved a "hit" from that HF even though I was nowhere actually near it , and spent the rest of my day under observation.

My other concern is , if , in a motor vehicle accident , the battery cases are ruptured and fire/rescue personnel play water on the accident scene , the chance to accidently produce HF is very real , with potentially tragic results.

For those of you who understand my concerns , you can very quickly search HF acid and its dangers , you may be shocked by what you read.

If you wish to reply to this post , please dont quote me , just use the reply to thread ......thanks

**Tombie** · 25th October 2021, 08:15 AM

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

**RANDLOVER** · 25th October 2021, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tombie

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

IIRC thousands of chemicals are approved for use every year, however they are safety tested in isolation, so if they become part of a a combo in a fire, flood, impact, etc no one really knows what is going to happen.

**Tote** · 25th October 2021, 11:21 AM

New technologies bring new risks. A co worker is in the SES. Once upon a time the biggest risk in fixing storm damage was falling off the roof. Now it is the potentially live and unable to be effectively isolated solar panels that adorn many roofs.

Regards,
Tote

**BradC** · 25th October 2021, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Tombie

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

**RANDLOVER** · 25th October 2021, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by BradC

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

To make car a/c's safer/greener some now fill them with propane (aka R-290 IIRC). Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc

**BradC** · 25th October 2021, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

To make car a/c's safer/greener some now fill them with propane (aka R-290 IIRC). Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc

I don't pay a great deal of attention to what VASA says. They're a bit of a political animal and are prone to hysteria.

On that note though, yes people do put R290 (propane) in their vehicles in place of the designed refrigerant. Not a great move, in that the pressures are significantly higher than what the system is designed for. Might be ok unless you hit a corner case and pop something. Then again, in a Discovery 3 (for example) you'll find you hit the upper head pressure limit far earlier than you should and wind up with no cooling on a stinking hot day as the system protects itself. Don't do that.

On the other hand, there are hydrocarbon replacements with the right PT characteristics and better performance than the original Fluorinated refrigerants but you need to understand what you are doing to prevent system damage. For example, should you choose to use Hychill, don't use their recommended weight charts but calculate your replacement refrigerant volume based on the original refrigerant and name-plate charge.

**RANDLOVER** · 25th October 2021, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by BradC

I don't pay a great deal of attention to what VASA says. They're a bit of a political animal and are prone to hysteria.

On that note though, yes people do put R290 (propane) in their vehicles in place of the designed refrigerant............

Yes I think R-290 is propane cut with a bit of butane, not sure what difference that makes as all the ...panes/..anes are just hydrocarbon chains that is to say, hydrogen carbon combo's "A two-carbon chain is called ethane; a three-carbon chain, propane; and a four-carbon chain, butane." Hydrocarbons | Chemistry for Majors: Atoms First (lumenlearning.com)

**BradC** · 25th October 2021, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

Yes I think R-290 is propane cut with a bit of butane, not sure what difference that makes as all the

No. R290 is propane. R600 is butane. R600a is iso-butane. The difference is in the boiling temperatures.
Using butane will wind up with liquid at typical evaporating temperatures and destroy valves in the compressor. ...panes/..anes are just hydrocarbon chains that is to say, hydrogen carbon combo's "A two-carbon chain is called ethane; a three-carbon chain, propane; and a four-carbon chain, butane." Hydrocarbons | Chemistry for Majors: Atoms First (lumenlearning.com)

R12/R134a replacements are typically a 60/40 blend of Propane and Iso-Butane to match the PT curve of R12.

Here's one I knocked up a while back. OZ-12 is the roughly 60/40 mix and pretty much the same as Hychill. Y is pressure PSI, X is temperature in C.
You can see that on a stinking hot summers day, when your condensing at ~70C your head pressure with pure Propane is significantly higher than the alternatives.

**scarry** · 25th October 2021, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by BradC

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

Phosgene was pretty bad as well,dont ask me how i know...

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