Thread: You're not in the forces now..... A chat about impacts of when and why some have ....

Originally Posted by p38arover

I don’t know how many pick up on Frankie’s stepping on a mine when man stepped on the moon and that Frankie was going home in June - Frankie should have gone home a month earlier. Armstrong stepped on the moon on 20th July, 1969 (21st here?).

I certainly did. I allowed "artistic license" on that one.

I knew many guys who drew the Nasho straw, mostly brothers of my mates, as we were too young. But, I joined the ARA on 12/07/1972 fully expecting to deploy. That was the point of the RAEME course I did. Having met a number of blokes who did deploy, I reckon I dodged a bullet ( make what you will of that "pun"). But, I was spat at in the street in my uniform, as if I was responsible for what went on over there. Can't imagine how that would have impacted on those that did go, especially considering that most were conscripted.

I have close relatives who deployed more recently to more arid theatres. I'm pleased to say that they receive far better support. But there are still scars I can't talk about.

Originally Posted by ChookD2

Thanks Diver, an hour of my time well spent.

This type of information should be presented to EVERY service member returning to Australia. Whether from a war zone or peace keeping mission.

When I departed East Timor in February 2000 I spent about 5-10 mins with a Psych who asked several questions. You just give them the answers you know they want to hear. One less administrative issue to deal with.

On arrival back home...... take a **** load of leave, then back to work. A few weeks later have a medal pinned on your chest.

Defence made absolutely zero effort to reach out, to check in, to even bother once you returned. I had a young soldier in my troop who came back from Banda Ache following our response to the Tsunami in 2004. Dealing with that much death and destruction effected him but there was no monitoring, no follow up by Defence. Then about a year later he started to exhibit some .... strange behaviours which alerted us to his plight. Broke his marriage.

Fortunately I have mostly been able to cope, sure there were a few 'issues' at home, at work (military) and in civilian life after. In my case, thankfully, not to any significant level. Perhaps because I was a civilian longer than I was a soldier, late starter at Kapooka at age 31.

You don't have to be ex-military to have PTSD. You may have had some other kind of traumatic incident in your life.

TALK!! TO SOMEONE!!

I was a bit skeptical when I started watching. When he got to the crux of his thoughts our reactions honed by years of training may be 'a' factor in our relationships and sadly for some trauma I was impressed and very interested.

As always I think about the 15 year old me or the 17 year old me who had moved in two ships more than 1/2 round the world before I had a free beer and horrified the Los Angeles barman who gave it to me for my 18th birthday

Knowledge and understanding in psychology is helpful in caring and understanding why we or those we know have traits and habits formed by our history.

I still stick by my "Very Very Lucky" handle. Not feeling fantastic at times right now but I know I will be better knowing why some things may be caused by some or many things.

The feeling of 'emptiness' or lost at sea when I discharged is a moment like your thoughts about Defense.

Note Open Arms Open Arms - Veterans & Families Counselling Is available IF we seek or need help. We all know help is not perfect for everyone. That leaves some lost and/or at significant risk sadly.

We get to see the good, the bad and the very ugly of outcomes.


"TALK!! TO SOMEONE!!" Like my running. Run repeat and do it again!


Sorry Lionel for upsetting you. I know you care and worked deeply on this subject sir!

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

Sorry Lionel for upsetting you. I know you care and worked deeply on this subject sir!

Hello Navy-Diver,

Not upset. More an instance of the Twilight Zone theme being played. I had just received a document that I wrote about the Abyss and PTSD from my proofreader the same morning that you posted the link to the Youtube clip. I had some thoughts running around in my mind that I captured on paper before heading off to bed at 2:30 the night before. Serendipity or just plain freaking Twilight Zone stuff.

I was nodding my head all the way through Nic's excellent instructional video. The link to the military culture being enforced throughout the basic and advanced training is so important to emphasize as the main drivers of PTSD within military veterans. How the training in reality deliberately stimulates elements of PTSD that is not defused upon discharge. The explanations of fight and flight were the most clear and practical that I have come across yet after years of studying military PTSD and PTSD in general. Even though Nic is no doubt retired by now, it would be great to catch-up with him for a yarn.

Kind regards
Lionel

A one page precis of Long Tan, by one bloke. Hard to get over, ay!

https://losthistory.net/rnza/tales/longtan1.htm

As noted above this can impact in many ways you might not think about. Father was waiting by the runway to board aircraft for a flight to the Middle East in 1956. Was to secure airfields for RAAF to fly into. All keyed up ready to go. Then stand down as it is all over now and you are not going anywhere. Every time someone refers to him as a veteran he raises this and becomes angry saying is not a veteran. Takes a while before returns to normal grumpy self

Originally Posted by 3toes

As noted above this can impact in many ways you might not think about. Father was waiting by the runway to board aircraft for a flight to the Middle East in 1956. Was to secure airfields for RAAF to fly into. All keyed up ready to go. Then stand down as it is all over now and you are not going anywhere. Every time someone refers to him as a veteran he raises this and becomes angry saying is not a veteran. Takes a while before returns to normal grumpy self

I know how he feels. I'm a Veteran. I have a White Card to prove it.... sure I am. Always felt I got it under false pretences. Given what my uncles did, what my FIL endured on that bloody railway, what my son and nephew did, well.... I never deployed.

But, I went to the same Kapooka, did the same basic, cos Vietnam was still on, last Nasho intake went through not long before. This video explains a hell of a lot, helps me understand why I wound up how I did, goes some way to explain my years and years of substance abuse, my mood swings.

Some here may remember a thread I started on here in 2017. I suppose some would have seen it as self indulgent, to vent grief and loss on here, but even then I think I knew that the only way, the only right thing to do, is to talk. At that time I saw this as a "safe space" in a way. I have been seeing a professional therapist ever since. In the first year I would say absolutely that he kept me alive. What I have learned, not from him but through him, echoes what others here have said. TALK to somebody. What Nic says in the video. What a guy he was, hopefully still is.

That White Card? I got it last year. it has been funding my counsellor since then. After watching that video I feel far more comfortable about that. I still struggle with wearing my Defence Medal on ANZAC Day, but like my Iraq veteran son tells me, I should wear it with pride. Not my fault I didn't go, he says.

Thanks James, for this thread. It took me right back, but managed to do so in a good way. It takes away a lot of the shame I have felt.

For those of you who are avoiding watching the video: Don't. Watch it, it's worth every second. There are a lot of blokes it could have benefited from it, the whole thing, who aren't here, who might have been.

Hello All,

Another interesting point is how transportation technology provided a buffer to people experiencing what would later be termed PTSD. When military people were being transported home after the World War II finished the main form of transport was ships. It could take weeks and months in close quarters surrounded by all your mates before the boat docked in Australia. Then it might have taken a couple of weeks before you were demobbed. All this time allowed the fight/flight mode to be in decline while you talked with your mates about plans for the future.

A couple of years ago there was an interview on the ABC of a bomb disposal crew member who served in either Iraq or Afghanistan. He caught the plane from over there one morning and arrived home mid afternoon the next day - or the day after that. His wife was still at work and his kids were at school. He was left alone in the house. By the time his wife and kids got home he was curled up in the foetal position, on the floor crying uncontrollably. He was carted off to hospital in an ambulance, sedated. There was no transition between active duty and returning home. Once he got home it was to an empty house. He was jumped by PTSD. He was not discharged from the military just reassigned from active duty, so there was no compulsory release interactions such as sitting down with the medicos for a quick chat before the release forms are signed.

The advances in technology did no one any favours - no time to what the Americans later called 'Decompression' like the World War II veterans had because of the speed of the transport technology that bought them home.

Kind regards
Lionel

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Hello All,

Another interesting point is how transportation technology provided a buffer to people experiencing what would later be termed PTSD. When military people were being transported home after the World War II finished the main form of transport was ships. It could take weeks and months in close quarters surrounded by all your mates before the boat docked in Australia. Then it might have taken a couple of weeks before you were demobbed. All this time allowed the fight/flight mode to be in decline while you talked with your mates about plans for the future.

A couple of years ago there was an interview on the ABC of a bomb disposal crew member who served in either Iraq or Afghanistan. He caught the plane from over there one morning and arrived home mid afternoon the next day - or the day after that. His wife was still at work and his kids were at school. He was left alone in the house. By the time his wife and kids got home he was curled up in the foetal position, on the floor crying uncontrollably. He was carted off to hospital in an ambulance, sedated. There was no transition between active duty and returning home. Once he got home it was to an empty house. He was jumped by PTSD. He was not discharged from the military just reassigned from active duty, so there was no compulsory release interactions such as sitting down with the medicos for a quick chat before the release forms are signed.

The advances in technology did no one any favours - no time to what the Americans later called 'Decompression' like the World War II veterans had because of the speed of the transport technology that bought them home.

Kind regards
Lionel

Very good points, Lionel. My FIL described similar, except he was on a hospital ship, but so many other POWs were too. One of my uncles came home from the ME by sea as well. Sadly, it didn't really help him it seems; a terrible, rushed marriage, a divorce and separation from his kids, and slow suicide by alcohol and isolation. I never knew why, he was a good bloke.
My son and nephew flew home, with a stopover in some desert city. Son is fine, if a little hard. Nephew, not so much, but he now runs a sort of "boot camp" thing to help other vets.
I can't believe that we might go down that path again soon.

"Sag mir wo die Blumen sind
wo sind sie geblieben
Sag mir wo die Blumen sind
was ist geschehen?
Sag mir wo die Blumen sind
Mädchen pflückten sie geschwind
Wann wird man je verstehen
wann wird man je verstehen?"


​Marlene Dietrich.