Permit system for access to aboriginal land to be abolished

I would be careful about the scum miner tag. Not saying it does not happen but is a minority compared to the abuse committed by their own people and relatives. Most of us that work in the mining industry are just normal, family orientated people. There are bad apples in every barrel.
Not sure that prohibition will work either though. Basically all it will mean is a lot of these people will move to populated areas where there are no restrictions.
I would eliminate anyone that touched my kids, no question and probablly anyone I observed doing it to someone else kids, white, brown or yellow.
The sad thing is everything is being blamed on the white man and until these people (white groups included too) respect themselves nothing is going to change.
The chip needs to be removed from the shoulder and realise that we do not owe you anything except a chance, you owe yourself to take that chance.
I would love nothing more than to see no child grow up in an abusive or poverty stricken environment, but there is only so much the government and taxpayer can do.
I will get called a racist for this, but I do not care because I know I am not and take people on merit. For such a small proportion of the community to have so much tax dollars spent on is just wrong and indicitive that the solutions just are not working, not to mention most of this funding is not getting to where its needed.
In my opinion child abusers should be lynched, no ifs no butts, no excuses.
Tribal punishment for this sort of thing what a farce, unless of course you are going to cut of their n&^s or kill them, then I am with you.
Rant over
I can not see the correlation between permits and child abuse either???

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Originally Posted by olbod

Ron, yes the white miners have been sexually abusing kids in some areas !
Parents have been letting this happen in return for grog !
People have been trying to report it but have been charactor attacked and maligned.
The latest report that Howard asked for revealed the extent of the problem, this is what got his dander up.
The alcohol ban will include the areas where these scum white miners
are. If these jokers dont like it, Stiff. The kids are more important.

At the end of the day, I dont think custodial sentances would be desirable
for the drunken black perpetrators except for the real nasty hard core
cases.
Dry them out, rehabilitate them and try to improve the living standards
in the community will be the way to go.

I also think that reintroducing and allowing some of the traditional Aboriginal laws to be enforced by the elders will help to stabilise the
situation. What is needed is respect for Elders and tribal law. Once that
happens, then with time and education they can be assilated into all levels of our society, with great benifets for all of us.
If that means that sticking a spear in an offenders leg is whats needed,
then so be it. While we live in the 20th century, the bush Aboriginal
has to be eased into it. Dont forget that there are still many people alive
today that had never seen a white man untill just a few years ago !
Cheers.

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CraigE, I wasn't labelling miners as such, just the child abusers, those that were identified in the latest report. Scum, applies to all other child abusers
and wife bashers in any society.

Some years ago when the Aboriginals were put onto missions, they were all lumped together, regardless of "skin" colour. This was a mistake.
Skin colour was important in their society as it seperated the tribes and
created the land boundries that families and tribes had to identify with
and look after. This is when tribal law started to break down, because Elders of one skin had no duristriction over other skins. They could be told
where to go without retribution and because we did not recognise their
law or way of handling a problem, things came unstuck.
Ancient social behavior broke down and respect for Elders and parents
and ultimately everything else were forgotten and left them in the lawless
situation they are in now.
A lot of our kids today are the same, parents dont have or seem to want
to control their wayward anti social children.
The Elders living in some of these remote areas know what is required
but nobody listens, it has to be done our way ! Probably not much will
change unfortunately.

Speaking personally, I would like to see the entry permit system abolished.
I have always been against it. I hate having to apply for a permit so that I can travel thru a area and sometimes wait weeks or months to get it.
Thats not how I like to travel around. I dont plan trips months ahead
unless it is for an upcoming wedding or family do. If I had to plan a trip months ahead, I probably wouldn't be bothered unless it was an interesting invitation to fit in with someone else's plan. Like goin to Cooma in 08 !
When I get the urge to go, I like to just do it, now, not next month or next year. We dont have to wait for long weekends or annual holidays, every day is a good day to go an doit.
At the same time, tribal land must be respected when we travel thru it,
it has to be recognised as not being our property to do as we please with.
A lot tracks we use, pass thru station properties.
Most of us shut the gates and so on and dont abuse the privilage to use these roads. Most of us dont need permits or Ranger patrols to see that we do the right thing.
I personaly will not be raising questions about removing permits, I will encourage it.

Mr and Mrs Numpty are going to love being retired !
Cheers.

Agree with most of what you are saying. Tribal law may be effective for some things if followed nationwide, but as you pointed out is not effective.
The Westminster system while not perfect is all we have and applies to everyone. You can not really have different systems of justice for different creeds. That is racism.
There needs to be uniformity on sentencing however as many high profile cases have proved if you have money and power you are likely to get a lighter sentence. I do not think socio economic standing should come into it but it does.
In the end the police and the courts are damned if they do damned if they dont.
Unfortuanately this is not just an aboriginal problem and many parents are not doing their job or even attempting. Then current laws make it difficult to try.

As one of the "younger" dad's on here (30) I agree with the problems on both sides. We have twin boys who are about to start school and whilst they are definately not little "angels" they are reasonably well behaved. (and yes we do smack when required despite the looks of child abuser if they get one at the shops)

I am really worried about the influences they will be getting when they attend school. Kindy is a smaller group with a high teacher/student ratio.

Short of starting Aboriginal "mission" schools I think trying to integrate these aboriginal kids will cause more problems for both sides. I went to school in the NT and remember hearing all the propganda how ABSTUDY was the same as AUSTUDY only we all knew it wasn't.

On one side you will have the disruption and truancy issues that need to be dealt with on the Aboriginal side (I'm generalising here) and on top of that the white kids "influence" and attitudes being thrust on them is going to make it even more difficult for them.

Then from the white kids side you'll have kids who are getting more than them and still be truant at times. I think it will cause greater divide.

There's been a few comments, and some here may know more than me, but tribal punishment can be quite brutal, involving life-threatening (or lethal) spearing, beatings, or the traditional "death" of complete exclusion from your tribal group.

The reason the NT takes tribal punishments into account is that it would be unfair to jail someone for an extended period if they've already had multiple spears through their thighs for the same offence.

One of the big problems, as highlighted by olbod, is that tribal law is not recognised or respected in a lot of communities, as it has become practically unenforcable. In some groups it is the mother's brother's responsibility to protect (or avenge) the children, and it is the deriliction of these responsibilities through drunkenness (or being the perpetrator) that is lamented by the older women.

CraigE said "Tribal punishment for this sort of thing what a farce, unless of course you are going to cut of their n&^s or kill them, then I am with you."

While castration is not a common punishment, violence that would warm the cockles of your heart often is, where traditional law is operating traditionally.

It needs to be remembered that at the moment it is just Permits for Land Councils in the NT that are being abolished. They still apply for Aboriginal Lands in SA (In addition to Woomera Range permits for certain areas), in WA and Cape York.
I think Permits are a good system if we are truly honest in saying that those parcels of land belong to Aboriginal communities. At least they offer a method of allowing access that is often impossible to obtain for other tracts of land. I have driven a fair bit of outback Australia and it is very rare to have unfettered access to ALL lands, not just Aboriginal land. If a private landowner had displayed a sign saying "Private Road", or "No Trespassing", very few people would ignore that and insist unrestricted access. Access on freehold or leasehold cattle stations is entirely dependent on how the station manager views tourists, and they are well within their rights to deny access, just as you are entitled to control who visits your property at home. Most Mining leases will exclude visitors, even those experiencing vehicle problems (Have you tried to visit the Granites Goldmine on the Tanami? The armed guards will discourage you!) It was not even all that long ago that trying to pop into Woomera for a bag of ice would have been a Commonwealth offence.
If the Govt's efforts in this matter are aimed at curbing Alcohol and Drug abuse in the communities, then removing Permits will allow grog and drug runners free access and undermine the restrictions. Even with the Permit system and "Dry" communities, many townships still have alcohol problems due to Alcohol being brought into the communities "On the sly".

Craige, I am a bit of a bleeding heart type but don't think you are racist from you comments. I listen to the indigenous radio network and there is some recognition there that the communities must start taking control of their situation, especially the adult males must start showing some leadership. They highlight and celebrate communities where this has been one.

There is a growing number of rational, informed, conservative voices in the indigenous community that are trying to focus their mob on what the real objectives should be, not just hating the white-fella. But they have a long way to go and the fed government needs to be careful they don't make this harder for them.

Of course they still have a chip on their shoulder and you could argue all day whether or not this is justified but in my mind it is preventing them moving on.

I have no problem with extra tax dollars going their way but admit that even the well-intentioned money spending of the past has probably made them worse off as they now seem to have an embedded welfare culture. Money should now be directed as projects, not more welfare, which both parties agree will contribute to breaking this cycle that both parties have help create.

Prohibition is pointless unless it is nationwide, which is also stupid. If I had to give up drinking for the rest of my life just to give these guys a chance I would happily do it. But it would be hard to convince me that it would work.

One of the things about all of this that gets my back up, is how the government is only on about the NT. Which I believe is because it is a Territory and not a State which has more powers. Halls Creek in WA used to have (I'm not sure about right now) the highest incidence of STD's in the world!! and in children as well, why is the fedral government not doing something about that?

I am a grumpy old cynic, I believe this is more about the election than helping, the Clair Government asked - pleaded for assistance over a year ago and it fell on deaf ears at a federal level, so the territory gov has been trying to get help.

Also why were the reports and the elders that had been assisting the NT government ignored by the Howard Gov?

I believe there is far to much politics involved BUT hope that some good comes out of it for the children as they need it.

I believe that this heavy handed approach which does damage long term at a self determiation level will cause damage to the communities. Education and working together to fix the problems is needed, also better schools, policing, roads, housing, and jobs. All this has worked towards the problems that we now face.

thats my two bobs worth

Blythe

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Originally Posted by blitz

One of the things about all of this that gets my back up, is how the government is only on about the NT. ........

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Well, I can answer that one easily - the Federal government can override any NT (or ACT for that matter) legislation they want to, something they cannot do in states, no matter how much they want to (they can override the states in a few specific areas - that is the way the constitution was written - anything not written into the constitution remains a state area). The NT is not a state, but has a different status.

As for the main subject - I don't have any ready answers. While I think that something needs to be done, I am less than enthusiastic about the governments actions.

John

Paul,
Cheers for that. I think the first step for any culture to get respect is for them to have self respect and respect for others rights and opinions, not just taking one point of view and condemming everyone else for making something of their lives. I really do hope indigenous comunities can start to move forward and 200 plus years on can move past the anti white sentiment and stop blaming. I for one love multi cultural endeavours and people should try before they condem other races. Having said that imigration does need to be controlled and just taking all refugees is not an answer either, no matter how sorry we are made to feel for them. In all honesty talk to some refugees who are candid and they will even tell you its a big con often.

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Originally Posted by DiscoStew

Craige, I am a bit of a bleeding heart type but don't think you are racist from you comments. I listen to the indigenous radio network and there is some recognition there that the communities must start taking control of their situation, especially the adult males must start showing some leadership. They highlight and celebrate communities where this has been one.

There is a growing number of rational, informed, conservative voices in the indigenous community that are trying to focus their mob on what the real objectives should be, not just hating the white-fella. But they have a long way to go and the fed government needs to be careful they don't make this harder for them.

Of course they still have a chip on their shoulder and you could argue all day whether or not this is justified but in my mind it is preventing them moving on.

I have no problem with extra tax dollars going their way but admit that even the well-intentioned money spending of the past has probably made them worse off as they now seem to have an embedded welfare culture. Money should now be directed as projects, not more welfare, which both parties agree will contribute to breaking this cycle that both parties have help create.

Prohibition is pointless unless it is nationwide, which is also stupid. If I had to give up drinking for the rest of my life just to give these guys a chance I would happily do it. But it would be hard to convince me that it would work.

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