Thread: Catalyst - 4WD's on beaches

Some of our local councils have been meeting with interested groups to decide on whether regulation of vehicles is warranted and what kind if there is any. Participants have included locals who live nearby, greenies, local and central govt. reps, police, 4WD associations, local tribal reps, and individuals.

So far the general impression I have is that they are pretty happy with 4WDs on the beaches, but there are idiots who need to be restricted. The biggest problem is with motorcyclists who rip the s**t out of sand dunes, go places where they are restricted from (and are sign posted), kill pedestrians, and generally create noisy mayhem. The initial outcomes seem to be that motorbikes are being limited further and speed restrictions are being put in place to stop people from killing themselves.

The issues related to fauna have been addressed previously here (in NZ) and it has been noted that there are certain times of the year where vehicles should not go certain places. In most cases it is the local inhabitants who tell people they can and can't go. Generally people are happy to comply but you do always get fools who insist on "being different" and doing whatever they want, when they want.

Having no restrictions on collecting shellfish and driving over their breeding beds led to widespread population drop offs, especially in the '80's. Since then, with people taking an active interest in their growth and survival, numbers are now very healthy in most areas. This is normal people doing it for themselves. I don't need socialist do-gooders telling me why I should be feeling guilty about this thing this week, or that thing next. Cripes, I'm not even Catholic

The interesting thing is that with measures in place to protect one species, for example the Toheroa (largish shellfish, and very sweet ), other species also rebound.

Alan

Ever seen a beach after a rock show or sports event.
The sand is a lunar landscape.
Will the do gooders stop this damage......I think not.
And that is my point.....two sets of rules .
Why dont they get money to check this and will it make it to TV.
I think not.
Because the greenies and experts will look bad.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Some of our local councils have been meeting with interested groups to decide on whether regulation of vehicles is warranted and what kind if there is any. Participants have included locals who live nearby, greenies, local and central govt. reps, police, 4WD associations, local tribal reps, and individuals.

So far the general impression I have is that they are pretty happy with 4WDs on the beaches, but there are idiots who need to be restricted. The biggest problem is with motorcyclists who rip the s**t out of sand dunes, go places where they are restricted from (and are sign posted), kill pedestrians, and generally create noisy mayhem. The initial outcomes seem to be that motorbikes are being limited further and speed restrictions are being put in place to stop people from killing themselves.

The issues related to fauna have been addressed previously here (in NZ) and it has been noted that there are certain times of the year where vehicles should not go certain places. In most cases it is the local inhabitants who tell people they can and can't go. Generally people are happy to comply but you do always get fools who insist on "being different" and doing whatever they want, when they want.

Having no restrictions on collecting shellfish and driving over their breeding beds led to widespread population drop offs, especially in the '80's. Since then, with people taking an active interest in their growth and survival, numbers are now very healthy in most areas. This is normal people doing it for themselves. I don't need socialist do-gooders telling me why I should be feeling guilty about this thing this week, or that thing next. Cripes, I'm not even Catholic

The interesting thing is that with measures in place to protect one species, for example the Toheroa (largish shellfish, and very sweet ), other species also rebound.

Alan

Spot on

If anyone will know what is happeneing with the local enviroment it is the locals not some bloke who comes in and has a look for a miniute and then says that Im the expert and this is what to do.

Im all for managment of wilderness areas BUT im not a greenie by any stretch of the imagination.

To me it is common sense to look after what you have so it is there for later generations but there are over educated gits out there that get the air play on TV like this bloke who have the idea of this is bad so stop it, not manage it and not think of it in any other way than that.

Yeah go ahead and do scientific studies but just like any sort of statistics there is no truth in the translation as they can basically take the information they collect and tell the public what ever they want about it.

The problem is that the scientist that do this dont do it maliciously as they really believe that they are right in what they think but in reality you wouldnt know until years later when then the status quo has changed and you then cant get back what youve lost.

"greenie" "conservationist" "environmentalist" are all labels that seem to have attracted an extremist persona. I think some guys here mightn't be aware that Four Wheel Drivers, Dirt Bike riders and Shooters are similarly stereotyped as Red neck Hooligans...

The truth is that only a minority of any of the groups above fit the stereotypes. Most people are considerate and able to recognise the needs and concerns of others and negotiate mutually tolerable behaviour.

Originally Posted by procrastination inc

"greenie" "conservationist" "environmentalist" are all labels that seem to have attracted an extremist persona. I think some guys here mightn't be aware that Four Wheel Drivers, Dirt Bike riders and Shooters are similarly stereotyped as Red neck Hooligans...

The truth is that only a minority of any of the groups above fit the stereotypes. Most people are considerate and able to recognise the needs and concerns of others and negotiate mutually tolerable behaviour.

So this is why the Green fuzzy feel good groups get the air play of the main stream media yet you wont see the hooligan red neck groups saying anything to anyone else other than their own groups.

Is this because us rednecks are too lazy to push our message into the main stream or is it that the mainstream media has an idea of what they want to sell to the pubic and have an idea of what they want us to think and force their ideal onto us.

I dont like people wrecking the enviroment but it is all a 1 sided fight when you get these self proclaimed experts involved and the media.

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads yet.

Some ****** takes 5 minutes and does some research, which may or may not have any relevance to anything at all, let alone 4x4 use, tries to make a name for himself by making a totally unsubstantiated statement that 4x4 beach use MIGHT BE, I’ll repeat that for those do gooders that missed in in the clip , this ****** made a totally unsubstantiated statement that 4x4 beach use MIGHT BE effecting fish and bird life, yet gave not one single shred of evidence to back his totally unsubstantiated statement.

His research was done over what period of time, 5 minutes, yet to my knowledge, these beaches have been used by 4x4s for at least 50 to 60 years and there is, even by his own words no proven evidence of any form of damage, so why did he make such a totally fabricated statement in the first. Maybe he is looking for more funding and he sees 4x4 bashing as a way of getting it.

After 50 years of use there would be by now, evidence of 4x4s effecting this crap he is making a big note himself over and if there was any real evidence, this s%#tfaced ****** and every greenie this side of the black stump would have already tried to use it to stop 4x4s using the few beaches they can.

Folks, get a reality check, this is nothing more than a bit of media hype.

Don't wrap it in cotton wool Tim

Originally Posted by drivesafe

This has got to be one of the most ridiculous threads yet.

Some ****** takes 5 minutes and does some research, which may or may not have any relevance to anything at all, let alone 4x4 use

Yes, that's right (apart from the 5 minutes). His job is to do the research. Don't attack him for doing the research. It is up to others to make a decision about its relevance, hopefully based on a more complete picture resulting from further research.

Originally Posted by drivesafe

tries to make a name for himself by making a totally unsubstantiated statement that 4x4 beach use MIGHT BE, I’ll repeat that for those do gooders that missed in in the clip , this ****** made a totally unsubstantiated statement that 4x4 beach use MIGHT BE effecting fish and bird life, yet gave not one single shred of evidence to back his totally unsubstantiated statement.

If he said that 4WD beach use MIGHT be having some sort of effect, I'm quite comfortable with that because that statement also implies that they MIGHT NOT. What is wrong with that?

I suppose if he had evidence he would have made a stronger statement. However it is quite a common phenomenon for an effect on one part of the ecology to impact on other parts and for increases or decreases in the numbers of some organisms to affect other organisms in the food chain. That seems like a perfectly good basis for further research and a reasonable thing about which to speculate.

Originally Posted by drivesafe

His research was done over what period of time, 5 minutes, yet to my knowledge, these beaches have been used by 4x4s for at least 50 to 60 years and there is, even by his own words no proven evidence of any form of damage

The fact that something has gone on for 50 to 60 years is no guarantee that it is not harmful. We often don't learn about the harm until someone does the research, unless of course the harm is so disastrous that Blind Freddy can see it.
After all people happily smoked tobacco in pipes and cigars in the 15th and 16th centuries and in cigarettes from the late 18th century, quite oblivious to the myriad of medical problems they were creating for themselves and those around them.

Originally Posted by drivesafe

so why did he make such a totally fabricated statement in the first. Maybe he is looking for more funding and he sees 4x4 bashing as a way of getting it.

I hope he does get more funding. That way we will find out the facts. With any luck, you will be proved right. However if it happens that you are wrong, we probably should try to address the problem .

Originally Posted by drivesafe

After 50 years of use there would be by now, evidence of 4x4s effecting this crap he is making a big note himself over and if there was any real evidence, this s%#tfaced ****** and every greenie this side of the black stump would have already tried to use it to stop 4x4s using the few beaches they can.

The evidence is sometimes obvious, but sometimes it is less obvious and if we can find the evidence that harm is being done, early intervention may be beneficial. If the evidence uncovered by the research shows no harm is being done, it may help silence the critics.

Originally Posted by drivesafe

Folks, get a reality check, this is nothing more than a bit of media hype.

Discovering the truth and distinguishing between fact and fantasy is one way to get a reality check. Research helps us learn what is real.

What the media has chosen to do with the information has little to do with whether or not it is useful research.

I can understand that we should be concerned that people might misuse this information either because of their own prejudices or their ignorance of how scientific research proceeds. However that is not a reason to denigrate the researcher.
His method seemed sound and his statements, from my recollection and from your account are certainly much more reasoned than some of the comments on his work, and the things he actually stated as results of his research are certainly better substantiated than some of the hysterical responses it has provoked.