Thread: Hey Ladas!

Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

Just a quick question,,,

have heard rumours they are gunna change the Air-Con gas again,,,

any news/ideas/thoughts?

It's past rumours - there are two main stream runners - basically R152a by DuPont Et al - and CO2 - R134a is being phased out

Neither will be 'drop in' replacements - and for most part the CO2 system won't function too well in anywhere but temperate climates - plus of course you cannot retrofit to existing vehicles

R152 is a flammable gas - but as DuPont state - it's not as flammable as HC's - right the flash point is fractionally higher (magically just above the internationally recognised flash point figure to remove it from the flammable gas labelling - coincidence -I don't think so)

However - the problem is if it did ever burn - the chemicals given off when burnt are higly toxic.

The GWP for HC refrigerants are <3 - for R152a its 160 - which is quite good for a chemical gas - but it defeats me why they just try and fudge the figures to make it look safer to Joe Public - they are real bastards.

So the motor industry will have to go through yet another metamorph to comply with the new standards - and guess who pays - yep you and me.

I was at the main ODS and GWP conference in Montreal a few months back - and our 'friends' DuPont have released 'another' gas to replace R22 (the gas mainly used in small split/domestic air con) and yes it has a Zero ODP - but the global warming (gwp) is 30% higher than the R22 it's meant to replace - figure that.

I am off to another UNEP conference in July - where we are hoping to beat a few up about R152 and the new R22 replacement

In the mean time we will just quitetly working in the background on acceptance of HC's - wish me luck.

lucked wished

Good Luck!!








and while you're over there,,
bring back a "Ladas to Layman" dictionary will ya?

Originally Posted by Pedro_The_Swift

Good Luck!!








and while you're over there,,
bring back a "Ladas to Layman" dictionary will ya?

ODS = Ozone Depleting Substances
GWP = Global Warming Potential
HC's= Hydrocarbon Gases

R134a has a GWP of between 1300 and 1900 depending on who's document you read

CO2 has a GWP of 1 - this is the reference point for GWP gases
HC's have a GWP of 3 +/-

CO2 will only work in temperate climates (northern Europe/UK places like that) as the critical temp (the point at which above the refrigerant will not condense) is very low at 38 Deg C compaired to R134a with a critical temp of 100 Deg C +/-

Now whilst you may think 100 Deg C is very high - (which it is) but on a 45 Deg C day sat in traffic with radiant heat coming off black tarmac - plus poor air circulation condensers can often be 'treated' to 70 Deg C temps - reducing the condensing effect quite considerably - thus reducing the cooling effect.

Good old R12 had a critical temp in excess of 130 Deg C - which gave it loads of room. CO2 does not stand a chance in a 40 Deg Day with a critical temp of 38

Did I miss anything from the dictionary - or did I just add some more

Give'em hell Ladas

so here we go agian.....another gas more problems etc etc

where do these people get there ideas from..do they look at the total picture?

dont do auto air but heres the guf on building a/c & refrig

we are now going from r22 to r410.....we have just got over the r12,r502 r500 r11 change overs together with their oil changes it just doesnt seem to stop

when replacing an a/c systm in a house or a comercial dx system we have to replace all the pipework as well as 410 operates at a higher pressure so the pipework has a thicker wall...great a lot of these pipes are installed in walls,cielings,etc when the buildings are built.

who pays for all this......we do in the end

are the costs of all this work and the manufacturing of the equipment,etc really ofset by a minimal decrease in power consumption & a refrigerant that is slightly better for the environment

a higher pressure refrigerant will leak quicker & is dangerous to work with

also a lot of smaller a/c systems say up to around 25 kw are single phase inverters due to mepps......great we often have to replace mains cables as well as the old units were 3 phase

and the inverters are extremely complex they have pc cards piggy backed on each other a gecko looking for somewhere to hide con do a lot of damage

going from r12 to r134a,and from r502 to r507 or r404a in commercial refrigeration pressures& temperatures were very similar.oil had to be changed to synthetic types to suit the new refrigerants,and some components with rubber did not suit these oils and also were changed,such as shaft seals,solenoid valves etc.this change was relitively easy compared with going from r22 to r410a



anyway have been in this industry for around 30 yrs

just my 2cents worth

ummmmh anyone want any r12 got a couple of 70kg bottles of virgin stuff

also finding good techs to do the work is extremely difficult

Thanks ladas for your excellent summary.

Thanks also for the glossary.

Best Wishes,