Thread: Shift to electric cars becomes inevitable

Originally Posted by beforethevision

1. The reason for electric cars is the efficiency of the energy production. Even coal burning plants are more efficient than auto engines, and combined with regenerative braking etc, emits less from use. Nuclear power raises its own questions, but reduces emissions further. This however does not consider the costs of production.

2. The use of hydrogen fuel cells is an interesting one as hydrogen can be removed chemically from coal (?) etc without buring. This then allows hydrogen production with limited airborne emissions, and a fuel cell with very high efficiency converting hydrogen into electricity. Again, no consideration of batteries.

3. I have a phd thesis floating around somewhere showing that infact a commodore could be powered by a heavily turbo charged 450cc engine. Giving massive fuel savings.

Cheers!

1. The maximum thermal efficiency of a coal powered power station is about 46%, which sounds good compared to the best car engines around 25% (diesels can be more efficient, up to around 50%, but not the ones in cars!). There are no power stations in Australia that come anywhere near this, however, probably 30% is about the best ("Standard" steam turbines have topped out with some of the most advanced reaching about 35%), and then you have to add in the energy costs of mining and preparing the coal plus the power distribution losses, which can be as high as 25-30% or even more if you include everything from heat losses in the transmission lines to the charge/discharge efficiency of the vehicle batteries and the efficiency of the electric motor. The major potential energy saving from electric cars is the use of regenerative braking - but current batteries will not accept a charge fast enough, although there is light on the horizon.

2. Coal contains from 3 to 6% hydrogen, most of it in combination with other elements, particularly oxygen in the form of water. While technically this hydrogen could be removed from the coal as elemental hydrogen, this would be an endothermic reaction which would require the burning of part of the coal to provide the required energy (or some equivalent source of energy) and would be a very wasteful use of the mined product. Nobody would ever even consider coal as a source of hydrogen except through the process of burning it to provide energy which is then used to generate the hydrogen, almost certainly ultimately from water.

3. Quite believable - the major fuel saving would result from the reduced mass of the power unit - remembering that as you reduce the mass of the engine, you can reduce the mass of the chassis, suspension, brakes, gearbox, etc, which reduces the amount of power needed, reducing the amount of fuel you need to carry, which means the engine can be even smaller ....... It continues until the mass of the engine and transmission becomes a very small fraction of the total mass.

An interesting fact I saw pointed out today - a hundred years ago, the Ford car, with five seat capacity, weighed 600kg. With a hundred years of progress, can anyone point to a car currently being produced anywhere close to this ? OK, it wasn't as comfortable or as safe or as high performance as we expect today - but some advances are expected in 100 years! (The way Ford managed this was by using (what were for the time) exotic high strength alloys, advanced casting techniques and innovative design)

John

Is this car our future at 1.1 cents a kilometre? | theage.com.au

http://www.unisa.edu.au/solarcar/trev/

Rick130 posted an interesting link in Biofuels the other day that mentioned diesel from algae.

Bring on the krill!

Cheers
Simon

My money is on pure electric. Electric cars make so much sense. We have a distribution grid in play, not just to a local service station but to every house! So you can fill up at home. The grid is also (I think) nation wide so we can transmit electricity accoss the country instread of trucking. If all cars were switched to electric overnight we would only have 1 major problem to solve and thats clean generation, solve that one (and a gov with the motivation probably can) and you take all the cars 'off the road'. Some LiPo cars now get just under 500km per charge - so more than a falcon. This technology is here to stay but a little expensive, all this will change though. As for traveling distances, obviosuly some people do travel a long way but most people may be suprised just how short that daily commute is. EG I live 37km from the middle of the CBD but it take 1.5hrs in peak hour one way. Also you can charge the car at work. Anyway 64km is not the upper limit, its the lower limit and it will go up from there.

Compare this to hydrogen which is an inefficient energy carrier at best and only gives you 120km ranges at the moment with very low power (acceleration, at least elec car have the ability to accelerate fast if you want to ditch some range). We have no H network, its hard to make, hard to store (compressing it into a tank uses even more energy therefore decreasing the overall efficiency), hard to transport (leaks like crazy from pipelines and exsisting gas pipes will not carry it) and after all those very big probelms it is clean when its used. Fuel cells cost a fortune, not just in R&D but in raw materials. I have not read about the cost of one lately but a year or so ago they were still close to 1m. I know economies of scale can see cost reductions but not from 1m to 3k. A BMW engine may cost a lot in R&D because its very technical but the raw materials probably only cost $50.

And dont get me started in the 7.0L per 100 camry, what tripe. 20 year old inefficient heavy 4x4 disco's are getting 8L on a good day! I dont know how this is positive, to me it seems insane and very disapointing. However, make it a plug in hybrid and then you have real power. Plug it in for all the local work and you may never need to use petrol, and if you do the averages are around 180 MPG. So I can see a strong position for a plug in hybrid with say a 50 to 100km range, but pure electric at the wheels none of this expensive dual power stuff.

In the current climate ('scuse the pun) I don't see why everyone's focus is the environmental impact. I thought with the current price of oil that people would be more concerned seeking independence from it (seems harsh but I bet if you cold offer someone to commute at only a dollar a day but it would pollute more they would take it). Electric cars allow you to do that. They don't suit everyone, but 70-80% of city populations would be able to commute in an electric car. And coal is a hell of a lot cheaper than oil. That and if the pressure was paced upon governments the cleanliness of coal plants can be improved greatly. Clean coal is a big thing atm.

Also if electric cars were taken up in a big way oil demand would drop and those who need to commute in conventionally powered vehicles could do so at a cheaper rate. I have been doing the sums lately for doing a conversion an electric vehicle conversion my self. The biggest price is the batteries. Once they come down (and they are getting cheaper fast) the balance will tip in favour of an electric vehicle.

Originally Posted by F4Phantom

My money is on pure electric. Electric cars make so much sense. We have a distribution grid in play, not just to a local service station but to every house! .....

Ultimately, I have to agree with you, and certainly agree about hybrids. But I have to point out that, perhaps much to your surprise, every house does not have mains power! (mine for example)

But quite apart from the problem of generating sufficient power for all these electric vehicles (at a rough guess would require a 25% increase in generating capacity), there is the fact that most of the existing distribution network is already operating at close to capacity.

However, as stuee points out, any change will not happen overnight, and if and when electric cars become feasible, the effect will be to reduce oil prices, albeit perhaps not as much or as quickly as you think. And I would like to know where these batteries are that are getting cheaper fast - I will have to replace my power system batteries in the next few years, and I have not seen any reduction in prices!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to convert my cars to battery power (or even buy a battery powered car) - I just can't see it happening in the next ten years. Beyond that my crystal ball gets a bit murky.

John

Originally Posted by waynep

Is this car our future at 1.1 cents a kilometre? | theage.com.au

Trev (two-seater renewable energy vehicle)

Waynep;

I can Just picture you driving around in one of these ??

Originally Posted by Disco_owner

Waynep;

I can Just picture you driving around in one of these ??

Ah yes but it comes with accessories



I'm referring to the plexiglass roof, of course