Toyota Prius vs Jeep Patriot fuel consumption

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Originally Posted by clean32

Hybrid cars,
1. ok today any of the major car manufactures could produce a Toyota corolla sized electric car with 200 Klm range for about 35K, that would need an 8 hour charge time or a 4 hour on a gen set. Its here now,

2. Also why is the Australian government blocking the import of the all electric ( smart car size) car from India? Retail about 11K here range 120 klm.

3. France produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear stations; a year’s production produces a refined waste the size of a pound of butter once sealed.

4. Regenitive breaking provideds much more than just 2-4 % charge back to the battery pack. The hard bit is the batteries can not be charged that fast. Use capacitors, end of problem.

5. Just like the 70s fuel price hike today’s fuel price hike is manufactured, propaganda just misinforms us into believing what we are being told. I the 70s it produced fractionalized banking; this time around it is a balance struggle between a couple of governments and the banking institutes, looks like the governments have won.

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1. While I don't claim to be completely up to date with the technology, I am unaware of any technology that could do this and that is capable of actually being mass produced, let alone at that price! Please elaborate. Also, explain why a gen set can charge faster than mains - I cannot see any possible explanation for this (I grant you may need three phase power to do it).

2. ADRs

3. Nuclear power is certainly the CO2 minimum technology that is here now. But I believe you are understating the waste quantity by a large factor, although the quantity of waste is certainly much smaller than most people seem to imagine.

4. Regenerative braking as you state, cannot be used to any extent to charge batteries as they exist at present. And the solution to this problem is promised by ultracapacitors - but at present it is only a promise. In fact, ultracapacitors promise to revolutionise batteries in all sorts of applications. One major reason for this is that they have a very high charge/discharge efficiency - probably around 95%, depending on rate. This compares to chemical batteries typically 60-80% - one of the main reasons for the popularity of lead-acid batteries is that at around 80% they are far more efficient than anything else available. However, ultracapacitors are not yet available either in quantities or at prices that make them feasible for production cars, although this could change quite rapidly. (Just checking on the current state of technology, Maxwell's ultracapacitors are quoted as having an energy storage density of 5.52Wh/kg, less than half the figure of typical lead-acid batteries. And I could not quickly find a price quoted.)

5. I don't understand this paragraph.

John

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Originally Posted by moose

On a side note, I heard the other day that none of the major oil companies are willing to sell E85 ethanol blend in their servo's in Aus. Hmm, now let me think, how many sugar crops would they own??:angel:

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More to the point, they should be o look at it as how many could they own to keep their business profitable.

On the solar front, in 1 case that I know of, a golf course in NSW, (not sure which one but I can find out) have installed solar panels on their sheds to supply power to grid and run lighting, computers etc during working hours.

This then with the installation of timers on the chargers they charge their carts and buggies off peak, this means they sell their extra power at the base rate and then buy it back over night at off peak rate so they make a small profit.

We are looking into similar at work but want to get a clear veiw of the carbon credits scheam first to see how we can make the most out of it.

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Originally Posted by clean32

....France produces 80% of its electricity from nuclear stations; a year’s production produces a refined waste the size of a pound of butter once sealed ....

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If we don't want to have mains power and don't want to have CO2 emissions from coal or oil fired stations or the problems related to the safe storage of used nuclear waste, then why aren't the Australian Governments talking about Solar Thermal - one thing that we do have is lots of sun and we also have lots of land which is in non-arable regions. So why don't we do it?

The Spanish have one in the Andalusian plains that generates 11 Megawatts without any CO2 or nuclear waste generation. BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Power station harnesses Sun's rays

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

If we don't want to have mains power and don't want to have CO2 emissions from coal or oil fired stations or the problems related to the safe storage of used nuclear waste, then why aren't the Australian Governments talking about Solar Thermal - one thing that we do have is lots of sun and we also have lots of land which is in non-arable regions. So why don't we do it?

The Spanish have one in the Andalusian plains that generates 11 Megawatts without any CO2 or nuclear waste generation. BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Power station harnesses Sun's rays

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The article gives the major reason - " this power is three times more expensive than power from conventional sources", but there are other reasons as well.

One major one is that areas of reliable sunlight tend to be areas remote from the areas of power demand, and also remote from grid infrastructure. There is also the problem that thermal solar plants of this type (or almost any other - but see below) require a substantial source of cooling water or the cost rise even further if dry cooling is necessary, and the sunny areas closest to areas of demand are also short of water.

Then there is the NIMBY factor - look at the reaction of neighbours to wind farms - this sort of thing is at least as visually intrusive.

About ten years ago there was a proposal (which seems to have vanished) for a different type of solar thermal power station near Swan Hill. This would have comprised an area of several hundred hectares of black roofing a couple of metres above the ground, gradually rising to a central chimney about a kilometre high (may have been higher, I'm going on memory), with one or more turbines at the base, generating power from the hot air going up the chimney. It got a very violent "NIMBY" effect, and serious concerns about local climate modification.

Because of these problems, in my view, the solar photo-voltaic method is more likely to be accepted (not very visually intrusive because they are close to ground level, for a start), and the distributed system model has real advantages in that it requires little new infrastructure and makes the entire power grid more robust. Photovoltaic power is also highly scaleable with little change in cost per kilowatt regardless of scale.

John

Also another thing that comes to mind is " how do you generate power from Solar-Thermal Energy at Night":eek::D?

I assume there will have to be alternate energy sources available , ie Nuclear-power , Hydro-Electric etc.

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Originally Posted by moose

With wanting to inflame things, my Mazda 6 diesel gets 6l/100 (and I can't be ar$ed driving economically), it meets the latest euro emissions standards and it's cheaper than the prius.

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In what conditions? Stop start or highway?

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

The article gives the major reason - " this power is three times more expensive than power from conventional sources", but there are other reasons as well.

One major one is that areas of reliable sunlight tend to be areas remote from the areas of power demand, and also remote from grid infrastructure. There is also the problem that thermal solar plants of this type (or almost any other - but see below) require a substantial source of cooling water or the cost rise even further if dry cooling is necessary, and the sunny areas closest to areas of demand are also short of water.

Then there is the NIMBY factor - look at the reaction of neighbours to wind farms - this sort of thing is at least as visually intrusive.

About ten years ago there was a proposal (which seems to have vanished) for a different type of solar thermal power station near Swan Hill. This would have comprised an area of several hundred hectares of black roofing a couple of metres above the ground, gradually rising to a central chimney about a kilometre high (may have been higher, I'm going on memory), with one or more turbines at the base, generating power from the hot air going up the chimney. It got a very violent "NIMBY" effect, and serious concerns about local climate modification.

Because of these problems, in my view, the solar photo-voltaic method is more likely to be accepted (not very visually intrusive because they are close to ground level, for a start), and the distributed system model has real advantages in that it requires little new infrastructure and makes the entire power grid more robust. Photovoltaic power is also highly scaleable with little change in cost per kilowatt regardless of scale.

John

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As far as infrastructure goes and water supply, the infrastructure wasnt always there for the grid we have now so whats to stop them from building more high tension lines to get it to the centres where it's needed? Cost? I think it's about time that some of the profits found their way into this sort of thing.

Water availablility isnt that much of a problem, there is masses of ground water that could be used for cooling which is brackish or not suitable to drink which could then be returned to the water table.

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Originally Posted by Disco_owner

Also another thing that comes to mind is " how do you generate power from Solar-Thermal Energy at Night":eek::D?

I assume there will have to be alternate energy sources available , ie Nuclear-power , Hydro-Electric etc.

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Yes there's Hydro electric which as I said can be used on storm water and sewage systems on a small scale and wind power (the nay sayers will just have to suck it up because it is visually intrusive but other than that it is non intrusive and there will just be more and more out in due to the outputs are large enough to make it comercially viable)

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

In what conditions? Stop start or highway?

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That's the average, it gets used for running around town, driving to work, etc. It's done 50,000km in the year we've had it.

If I see a Prius, I quickly get OUT of it's way...
*******
Q. Has anyone had any problems with their Toyota Prius?

A. the batteries lose efficacy fast enough that your "savings "on gas
will be off set by there replacement cost..that is if there were savings
..the cost of the car it's self off set any real savings there could be .
Toyota has the most recalls of any manufacturer..and they won't recall
the tundra right now even tho they know it has a potentially deadly habit
of accelerating when the driver wants to stop...avoid Toyota at all costs
...don't be a sucker for some "green advertising "

A. The only potential problem I see is an intake valve. There is a vent
in the rear seat that goes directly into the battery. If it gets clogged,
it'll basically destroy the car. We're not even letting fat people sit in
that spot, because it's easy to inadvertently cover. The manual
recommends against hauling aquariums or other large water objects.

A. Andrea of Plano TX (7/8/03):
My complaints are numerous (2001 Toyota Prius):
1. Front end alignment -- cause unknown. Several alignments, still
doesn't track well.
2. Gas gauge/tank problems -- went from 45.0mg to 29.5 mpg - took several
trips to get the problem "solved" -- not sure that it is totally solved.
Consumption screen is screwy and so is the gas gauge. Also told car loses
gas mileage as they get older -- car was only a year or so old and a
Prius doesn't use gas when stopped.
3. Rack and pinion steering -- several trips to service before they
agreed there's a problem and fixed it.
4. 3rd set of tires -- 18,000, 36,000 and about 45,000 miles
5. Accelerator assembly quit in rush hour traffic -- fixed, took two
trips. There's still a noticeable drop in power, almost daily.

Most problems "fixed" but I don't trust this car nor do I trust Toyota of
Richardson Tex to fix my car. The second trip for the accelerator I was
told there was nothing wrong with the car, but the "sticky" place
disappeared after second trip. They didn't want to admit they were wrong.


A. Karen of Fairhope AL (07/16/08)
The 07 Toyota Prius stated 60 MPH for in town, and from the first tank, I
have averaged only 45 MPH. Why was Toyota not being honest about the MPH?
Did the EPA really change the way it rates MPH?

A. W of Anaheim CA (07/16/08)
Re: 2005 Prius purchased 4/30/05 Noise after shut-down or when brake is
depressed to start __________________________________________ On 7/11/08
we took the car to the dealer to have this problem investigated because
the noise continued intermittently for several hours the previous night.
As we left for the dealer, the ABS warning lights came on, but, we
experienced no problem with the brakes on the three mile drive. We were
told that the cause was the ABS actuator and it would cost $2600 to
repair. We were only 2-1/2 months out of warranty with only 32,016 miles
on the odometer - not the 36,000 that would put us out of warranty if the
time hadn't run out. We were stunned to have such an expensive repair on
such a new car. We immediately contacted Toyota Motor Sales. On reviewing
the service record, we found that we had had the car serviced for a
different complaint (an unexplained beeping when the brakes were applied)
in May 2007. The identical part had been replaced under warranty. The new
part was warranted for 1 year. Again we were out of warranty by a couple
of months and after only 13,000 miles of driving. Toyota Motor Sales
negotiated with our dealer and decided that between them they would cover
the $2000 cost of the part and we should pay $600 labor (estimated at
5.5Hrs.) to replace it. Checking on line indicates several cases of
failure of this part. However, many people may be experiencing problems
without realizing it because of the strange and unpredictable symptoms.
Toyota has published Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) BR001-07 that
describes the problem and instructs the service departments not to do
anything unless the customers complain. In our experience this would put
many of the complaints out of warranty.
________________________________________ Tires ___________ We are also
very unhappy with the the tires and/or the suspension system. We have
experienced excessive tire wear and after 32,000 miles we need a new set.

A. Allen of Bessemer MI (07/02/08)
While accellerating into traffic on US-2 WB from Country Club Road in
Gogebic County, Michigan, the throttle on my new Prius (4,000 miles)
stuck wide open. I was able to maintain 55 mph by sporadic breaking and
finally managed to brake to a stop. While the engine was in the
accellerating mode, I was unable to shift to neutral, shut the engine
off, or otherwise stop the vehicle. After I was finally able to brake to
a stop (with both electric and gas engines still drawing full power), the
engine did shut down for a few seconds and I was able to hit the power
button and shut the engine off. I thought, at this time, that whatever
was wrong would have rectified itself, so I restarted the car with the
power button, while in park. The engine returned to it's normal idle
cylcle, but as soon as I put the shift lever into drive, the engine again
began racing and as I was now in heavy traffic in a 40 mph zone, I had to
maintain steady pressure on the brake pedal to keep the car within a safe
speed and lane usage. The engine (both gas and electric) now applied more
power as I was breaking and before I was able to pull off the street, the
brakes were smoking so badly my brother thought thew car was on fire.
Once into the parking lot of a local bank, and stopped, the engine again
paused briefly and I shut it down with the power button. While this
engine racing was taking place, I tried to shift to neutral, hit the park
switch, the power putton, stepped on and off the throttle pedal
repeatedly, and switched the cruise control button on and off several
times. The only succesfull remedy was to brake down through full applied
power to a stop, with smoking brakes and wait for a pause in engine rpm.
If I waited for more than a second or two, the high revs would resume and
run high for several more seconds. My Toyota dealer advised me that they
could find nothing wrong, test drove the car for 10 miles and had no
recurrence. They also suggested that my floor mat had become stuck on the
throttle pedal causing the incident. The service manager (Eric Bolen)
stated that Toyota maintained that this rampant throttle run was
IMPOSSIBLE I am a retired Michigan State Trooper especially trained in
accident investigation and reconstruction, a former Cummins Diesel
mecahnic and have installed several after market cruise controlls on at
least three different makes of vehicles, so I am very familiar with
mechanical and electronic systems. I am also quite experience in dealing
with emergency driving situations after spending 25 years on the road as
an enforcement officer. After being told about the floor mat excuse, and
knowing that I had tried to step on and release the accellerator pedal
over and over while the incident was happening, I did take the time to
place the floor mat both over and jam it under the pedal.......neither
tactics were able to jam the pedal's movement. In spite of Toyota's claim
that this condition is impossible, I have enough experience with vehicles
and emergency driving situations to know that this actually did happen,
was not a matter of a floor mat getting jammed either on or under the
accellerator pedal, and in fact was the result of some internal operating
system glitch. At this juncture, I have no complaint with our Toyota
dealer or their employees, and the vehicle seems to be functioning
normally now. I am concerned that Toyota has not addressed this as a
safety issue, however. Had this happened with my wife driving, I am sure
this would not have come to a safe conclusion. We are still driving this
vehicle but I have instructed her in how to handle a simililar condition
should it recure. Thank you for providing a forum for getting this
information out. If necessary I can provide vehicle VIN etc for more
thorough evaluation.

A. Anna of Keizer OR (06/24/08)
My Prius had the brakes go out (luckily for me it was under warranty and
I had a Toyota staff person advocate for my warranty so it was honored)
however, after reaching 100,000 miles, my display is now starting to show
the same signs as some of the other people are complaining about the
monitor turning off the radio, or a/c while I'm driving.

A. Geo of Huntsburg OH (06/15/08)
we bought a new 2002 toyota prius and with 20,000 miles on our original
set and 50000 on our 2nd set we now have to buy a 3rd set of tires
because the outer tread has worn down to the radial. these tires are
supposed to last 65000 miles and neither toyota nor bridgestone will do
anything about this potentially life threatening problem. We had the
tires rotated, balanced and aligned as needed. In my opinion, if you want
a eco freindly car buy a honda.

A. Michael of Willits CA (06/12/08)
The Traction Control system on my 2008 Toyota Prius is worthless. I have
a steep gravel driveway that is extremely hard to climb due to the
unnecessary engine cut outs, especially if there is any extra weight in
the rear of the car. The engines quit when the computer senses any type
of slippage; worse in the summer when gravel is dry. Also there are very
noticeable engine cut outs when just going over bumps on level pavement.
My previous Prius, a 2002, would slip a bit on the same driveway but I
had much more control over the car and the speed compared to the new
2008, very acceptable. Heavier tires with more rubber on the road made
little difference with the 2002; I expect the same when I get better
tires on the 2008. Had I known about the problem with this earlier, as I
have just found reported on the internet, I would not have purchased this
car.

A. I am SICK to my stomach. I have TRUSTED Toyota for YEARS to provide a
SAFE and RELIABLE vehicle. I traded in my 2007 Toyota Touring Avalon on
my 2008 Toyota Prius ... NEVER even giving ONE thought that I was buying
an UNSAFE and HAZARDOUS car. (Boy do I ever wish I still had the Avalon
...)

A. Ginny of Cascade ID (06/03/08)
My new 2007 Prius Toyota with 5000 miles on it quit running. Would not
start. Called dealer and had maintenance dept. walk me through a jump
start as with these cars you do it under the front hood not in the back
where the battery is. Car still would not start. They said have it towed
in. I did have it towed in the 85 miles to the dealer. After several mis
communication calls and two different reports on my car I found out they
will not fix under warranty. Say I jumped it wrong. They say I caused the
damage and that warranty is only for defective parts.

A. Ted of Eagle CO (05/26/08)
On August 10, 2008 my wife, Elizabeth James, experienced an unintended
acceleration of our Prius resulting in a totalled car and long term minor
injuries for her (chronic back pain, obstructed intestines).

A. Dean of New Rochelle NY (05/15/08)
The Toyota Prius nearly killed a mechanic and me today, literally. I had
the car stored for months in my flat level driveway for a relative who is
traveling abroad. Naturally, the battery went dead after not being driven
during this time. So, I had a mechanic come and he started the engine
today. While the Prius engine was running, both the mechanic and myself
were half in and half outside the car; the mechanic by the driver side
and me by the passenger side. The car suddenly lunged in reverse and the
driver side opened door of the Prius totally destroyed my car driver side
door parked along side it, and somehow the mechanic brought the car to a
stop. The mechanic claims the Prius was in neutral but the brake had been
applied when it suddenly, with no warning, accelerated in reverse. Im
thankful we escaped without injury but now I have a hefty expense to
replace my car door. Just imagine if someone had been behind the Prius
today, they likely would have died.

A. J. of Dublin, Ireland (05/15/08)
June 2004 Toyota Prius....28,800 miles. Computer Display unit on the
dash-board has gone faulty. Toyota say its not covered on the 8yr Hybrid
system warranty? They are looking for almost 3500 euro to replace
it.....after ONLY 28,000 miles!!! Have been offered a Reconditioned unit
for half the price? There must be a manufacturing problem with this
unit??

Air-conditioning unit not working and radio also faulty, plus no read-out
on display unit. A right pain to say the least!

A. Paget of Santa Monica CA (05/09/08)
I recently bought a Toyota Prius 2008. After one week I had a dead
battery. I have since learned that the car is started with a small 12v
battery and due to the size and number of items it runs on the car
(radio, CD, air conditioning fan, alarm, smart key entry etc) the battery
can go dead very quickly. if the car is not driven, the battery dies in 7
days. Even if you drive the car, it takes approx 10 hours of driving to
fully charge the 12v. I have never read this in any of the research I did
on this car.

A. Kevin of Rochester NY (05/09/08)
While test driving a Toyota Prius today the car accelerated on its own
even though my foot was off the gas and on the break. The sales women was
in the car with me and was as frightened. I drove the car about a half a
mile before I could find a driveway to pull off on. By then the car was
engulfed in smoke from the breaks over heating. I was finally able to
pull off the road and stopped the acceleration when I tapped the
accelerator. We drove the car back to the dealership to the service
department. Upon telling the service person our story he commented that
this happens all the time with this car and blamed the problem on the
accelerator being caught in the floor mat. I immediately walked ou to the
car opened the driver door, got on my hands and knees and examined the
floor mat and then pushed the accelerator down to the floor and
determined there was a inch distance between the mat and accelerator.
Toyota has a problem they need to solve!

A. William of New York NY (05/07/08)
I have a 2006 Prius fully loaded. I was checking the tire pressure one
day and had my hand in front of the tire. The engine kicked in, I guess
to charge the battery and the car jerked forward an inch or two. Good
thing I moved my hand quick enough. This is an accident waiting to
happen. So becareful if you have it on park and the engine is on. In
addition, when I'm waiting for someone in the streets and put it on park.
When the engine kicks in, the car jerks forward. And you know, in NYC
midtown area, there are alot of jay walkers. I hope they take this safety
concern into consideraton in future models.

A. Michael of Placerville CA (04/25/08)
Toyota Prius balked (shut Down) when entering highway from a incline and
we were not able to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Repair costs
to prius almost $10,000. Cannot get up drive way when it rains, snow
makes the car start and stop often.

A. Kathy of Torrance CA (03/13/08)
I am the owner of 2006 Prius. On February 25, 2008 at 8am heading to
work, suddenly, the hazardous red light and the battery light went off on
my dashboard screen and realized that my car was loosing power on busy
110 Harbor freeway north bound. I panicked not knowing what happened. The
car became heavy and it started to slow down no matter how I pushed the
accelerator.

I could not control the speed anymore. All I could think was to pull my
car to the right shoulder and I barely made it to the nearest shoulder
which was very narrow. I feared of the speeding cars approaching from
behind thinking maybe one of the cars will eventually crash into me. I
called above dealer right away but I was told that they would not know
the problem until they see my car and suggested my car be towed. When my
car got to the dealer, Sean first told me that things like this is most
likely covered under warranty so he suggested leaving the car and rent a
car.

So in other words Ron, the Prius isnt just a Toyota marketing ploy that stupid people are falling for but they are a dangerous lemon of a car as well.:p