A marketing opportunity missed

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Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

Best thing they could have done with that space is to put a 5 or 6 litre inline six in there. However we all know that starting with a decent size engine is a totally unknown concept in British automotive design circles. So what do they do? Put in an anaemic piddly little 2.4 litre four cylinder from the plumber's van.

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What I disagree with about this often discussed issue regarding the Defender needing a large capacity motor is that this notion implies that the Puma engine is somehow inadequate - which it is not.

The only situation where a larger engine would "benefit" this vehicle would be in acceleration from a standing start. But I didn't buy a Defender to use as a drag car. It doesn't really concern me if I'm slow off the mark.

I have found this engine has plenty of usable power and torque. In addition, it returns good economy. But one also needs to consider the entire drivetrain of this vehicle - large capacity engines create additional stresses on components and impact on wear and tear.

Even if a larger engine were available - I'd stick to the Puma.

PS - dm_TD5 - I lurve the look of that retro Fender you photoshopped - I would have bought one in a flash.

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Originally Posted by 2 rocks

Well I agree and disagree.They too have suffered with ownership changes (though perhaps not to the same degree). I think the comparison is more likely outside of the US than in Jeep's home market. Similar range, well, I think a Grand Chero maybe equivalent to an up-spec Disco, but not into RR territory. ??

Jeep haven't had anything in the marketplace to equate to a Defender for sometime - since the end of the J20 perhaps. However the new J8 (including mil-spec versions) may be if/when it goes into production. The JK Unlimited really occupies its own niche market space.

...But the white flag has certainly come out for Jeep with the release of the Patriot and Compass. The Patriot is built on a Mitsubishi platform, welcome to the slippery slope of RAV4's, Outlanders etc, etc!

Cheers
Mike

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You are correct Mike .. but Jeep is certainly a closer cousin to Land Rover than Nissan or Toyota will ever be. Both are speciality brands and have good sales in their market of manufacture with a "similar" product range.

Definitely agree about the Patriot and Compass. The lucrative small SUV market is attracting a lot of players but some will die a slow death, me thinks Jeep will be one of them.

We cannot argue that Land Rover's decision to go upmarket has produced some good returns making them profitable for the first time in many years.
That is not possible in a niche market unless you've got good products and a good understanding of the market you are operating in. Let's leave the mass production to Mr. Toyota, they obviously do it well.

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Originally Posted by PAT303

I'll tell all of you that Brian has a very good point.A contract company I work with,and many others will follow suit bought Hilux's when the rules change so that airbags must be fitted to site vehicles,the sales went through the roof,next year Toyota are fitting cruisers with airbags FOR THE AUSTRALIAN MARKET ONLY!!.So guess what,all the companys are going to switch over when they arrive.A fleet of hilux's one year,a fleet of cruisers the next.No wonder tojo are laughing all the way to the bank.One more thing,there is a demand for heavy dual cab utes,They aren't buying 130's,instead they are paying $14,000 per conversion to make LC wagons into dual cab utes.The market for work vehicles in Oz is near 80,000 units per year,LR sell about 200.Enough said. Pat

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Originally, BHP ( I think) contacted Toyota about the lack of airbags due to new workplace safety laws. Toyota in Japan bluntly stated they were not interested in fitting the new Handbruiser range with airbags as the volumes were not there and the worldwide demand didnt warrant it, not to mention the fact that there is no provision anyway for an airbag system in either the physical dash space or the electrics.
Subsequently, Nissan were approached and said 'no problem, just mark it on the options list!!'
Nissan scored an order for 150 Patrol cab chassis' with TD42T engines with a few more orders to follow.

Hilux was the only other option, but for down hole work, are a little under powered so tend to be found more as general pit and site vehicles.

The dealer support network for Landrover I agree is pretty bad. I would never go to either of the two LR dealers here in Perth and most likely not to the regional ones either as they are all essentially interlinked through Barbagallos.

There is no way LR would ever get into this market here even if they did produce a vehicle far superior to Toymota for mine work as the support would be abismal to say the least. Having a good knowledge of the Toyota dealer network here, it was only due to the lack of airbags that got Nissan an order in the first place.
The Toyota supply network is absolutely second to none.

I totally disagree about the tojo supply network being second to none.You can buy LR parts off the shelf for any LR from a series one up.A month ago I could not get a starter motor for a 2006 hilux,radiator hoses for a 06 Prado or injectors for a 07 Prado.None in oz.I'm in Kal with a huge tojo dealership but they keep all their parts over east.All they stock are engine filters. Pat

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Originally Posted by Scallops

What I disagree with about this often discussed issue regarding the Defender needing a large capacity motor is that this notion implies that the Puma engine is somehow inadequate - which it is not.

The only situation where a larger engine would "benefit" this vehicle would be in acceleration from a standing start. But I didn't buy a Defender to use as a drag car. It doesn't really concern me if I'm slow off the mark.

I have found this engine has plenty of usable power and torque. In addition, it returns good economy. But one also needs to consider the entire drivetrain of this vehicle - large capacity engines create additional stresses on components and impact on wear and tear.

Even if a larger engine were available - I'd stick to the Puma.

PS - dm_TD5 - I lurve the look of that retro Fender you photoshopped - I would have bought one in a flash.

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I get great economy out of my large Isuzu diesel. And yes I have driven a Puma, 300tdi and TD5, IMHO I'd prefer the Isuzu. Acceleration in a 110, whats that? Having all the power in the world will not assist in acceleration when the vehicle is engineered and geared to go slow.

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Originally Posted by PAT303

I totally disagree about the tojo supply network being second to none.You can buy LR parts off the shelf for any LR from a series one up.A month ago I could not get a starter motor for a 2006 hilux,radiator hoses for a 06 Prado or injectors for a 07 Prado.None in oz.I'm in Kal with a huge tojo dealership but they keep all their parts over east.All they stock are engine filters. Pat

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Goldfields dont stock a whole lot. I know, I used to deal with them. They are the only dealer in Kal, but most of the mines have contracts with New Towns here in Perth.
For all those items, you dont need to go genuine and would be much better off contacting OE parts distributors. Any diesel fuel injection place will get you the OE injectors without the genuine prices. Will PM you with details on where you can go.

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Originally Posted by dullbird

i really dont understand why you own a landrover (i'm actually assuming you do own one my apologise if you don't) as you seem to do nothing but whinge about them and the way landrover build them....

your the first landy owner i know that is infact a closet toyota lover:D..
it's usually the other way around:o:p

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interesting thread, some very valid points, but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.

I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.

Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.
they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.

Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john

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Originally Posted by JohnE

interesting thread, some very valid points,

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but why is it that when anyone on here bags a landrover they almost always become a toyota lover. Even as a joke it is starting to wear thin.

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I have had 4 toyotas and a mitsubishi and am a toyota lover !!!! I never spent the same amount of time under them as I have with the landrover.

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Landrovers aren;t the ducks guts,they are the ultimate POS, when compared to a landcruiser.

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they are a vehicle that certain people take a fancy to and I am one of them,
not because they are technologically brilliant
not because they are the best off road vehicle that can be found,
not because the power to weight is fantastic,
not because the ride is brilliant
its because they have a certain something that I like.Thats why I have them and enjoy working on them
Each unto their own.

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Some of you make out the land rover is the bee knees

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, we all know its not, thats why there are so many headings on here on how to fix the bloody things when something leaks, breaks, or generally doesn;t work.

And on other marques, someone could correct me if i am wrong, but don;t some of the larger overseas vehicle manufacturers do their prototype testing in the outback.
And landrover do theirs in the factory backyard to duplicate world conditions!!




john

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wow it really is getting harder to have a joke around here now isn't:o...i understand what your saying john about the wearing thin, but i think the whole landrover bagging thing is getting even thinner:(.
you may get offended, when someone jokingly calls someone a toyota lover!
the same as i may get offended when someone or some particular people conituniously bag out a car that some of us have brought and they have never driven!....works both ways.

I think you will find most dont think that the defenders are the bee's knee's if that was the case i would of thought they certainly wouldn't be posting up there problems and showing that the car isn't perfect.

I have to say this forum and landrover people have to be some of the most open minded people i have ever come accross....i'm affraid i cant say the same for some other brands...i'm sure more than one person here has taken a flaming for owning a landrover buy someone that owns a cruiser :)..we get bagged out enough, we dont need to be constantly bashed by our own. :) thats just my opinion anyway, my apologiose if it upsets anyone

and what is it "that certain something that you like" ?....just curious!

Interesting question, goes back to when i was 16 and in the cadets and bought a map of NSW ( which i still have its in the disco) at the time i wrote on it, 'Landrover map' took a while till I got one then two then more.
Maybe I like the unique boxy look!
over the weekend where i was near Keepit Dam, it rained on sunday night so much that the paddock we were camped in gone really wet, in the morning , there was a disco dragging a rangy out of the mud, a cruiser dragging an F250 out of the mud, a navarra, dragging a hilux out, and i dragged out an astra, a trailer, and a mazda.
no one made any comments about any 4wd's being better than the other.

john

yet when i first met my neighbour at a street christmas party he introduced himself and then proceeded to tell us what a heap of **** our two disco's were....this was before we had chance to introduce our selves back:D.

needless to say he does wonder up the street everytime we fit something new to the car to "have a look" :p

it does happen! its the way of the world...nikon verses canon,,,mac verses windows.
you will always get someone that is passionate about one thing more so than someone else...and some people express that passion by belittling the oposition.

and quite often with very little factual basis...I dont know alot about cruisers.
but what i do know is that we had one pull us up slippery rock at night as we had broken a rear diff and couldn't engage the transfer case (i.e we were a dead weight).

needless to say i was very impressed with the cars capability and thankful for the rescue. my jokey commet was not to say how good landrovers are, mealry just identifying with the bashing that i have gotten from cruiser owners.

But i still will always feel the confusion as to why, when people that own landrovers, go out of there way to rubish them, and come accross that they dislike them so much..and call them out right POS would want to own one!! that is what i cant understand......if i hated them and the way the company did things that much i personally wouldn't buy one out of principal.

thats why i asked you what it is you liked about them......as in your post it appeared you liked nothing about them what so ever. :D