Thread: Guru needed - Hazardous area (Flammable atmosphere) installations

Originally Posted by rovercare

^^^ I passed on the info to Vern, prob best way about it, spoke to a few blokes, most all are only involved in the HV side of things in the petro-chem industry and its only maintenance

Construction sparkie/supervisor/inspector here, mainly Oil and Gas but the bloke who wrote the standards would be the best bet for sure.

Unless he needs someone for some installation work and to get his hands dirty that is.........

Originally Posted by Vern

Done a bit if LV work in servo's, everything going to pumps and in that area had to be in steel wire armour with hazardous epoxy filled glands. But ELV, i'm not sure, as P.A gear was just wired up normal.
Do know that we could not use cordless tools, had to leave phones in the car etc.. but could carry our keyless entry keys on us, go figure. We argued this with Mobil and those in charge, and 3 years later we still can't get an answer.

G'day Vern,

Its for the same reason you can still ware a watch. Because no matter what you do, there is no way a watch battery has enough potential to generate a spark or get to a temperature (by it's self) to cause ignition of a surrounding atmosphere.

It's the potential energy (including temperature) that they are interested in.

so remote keyless entry is fine, but mobile phone isn't? Oh and i'm talking mobile phone on the site
(you can make a call in your car on the site or in a site shed)
Its also funny how we can't use a petrol cherry picker in a servo, so we have to use deisel. I'd have thought a petrol cherry picker would fall under the same catergory as a petrol car.

So you want his number whited3? PM me your mobile and i'll send it to you tomorrow if you do.

Originally Posted by Vern

so remote keyless entry is fine, but mobile phone isn't? Oh and i'm talking mobile phone on the site
(you can make a call in your car on the site or in a site shed)
Its also funny how we can't use a petrol cherry picker in a servo, so we have to use deisel. I'd have thought a petrol cherry picker would fall under the same catergory as a petrol car.

G'day Vern,

Different places have different rules. Some places diesel vehicles are all thats allowed on site, and mobiles are definitely a no no, servos as such fall under a different category to where I work, so maybe I'm not the best for giving answers on this but here goes.

I'm not totally up with this, but the reason I thought mobiles were banned in Hazardous areas is that it's down to the energy thing, not the fact that transmission is what causes the spark. You can buy (albeit expensive) hazardous area compliant mobile phones that work on the same network that normal mobiles work on, and can be quite safely used anywhere that the company will let you. Makes me think it's the battery that they are worried about, not the transmitting side of things. Same as the radios we use, all have been certified for use in flammable atmospheres. I'm guessing that your car and the site shed are away from anything flammable, or are in a area that has been deemed "safe"?

The diesel versus petrol thing has always been a bit confusing to me. There is greater risk of igniting a surrounding atmosphere with a petrol engine against a diesel, but all the same the risks are still there. Different places have different procedures as to how they manage these risks and I find it funny that a servo that has all manner of poorly maintained petrol engines blasting in and out all day and you guys needed to have a diesel picker. Maybe they are worried about it running all day increasing the risk of a flammable atmosphere being present, who knows, we get all sorts of funny rules to work by. Some places have banned petrols as working vehicles because of the fumes altogether, maybe thats why?

For instance, where I work, the use of a cherry picker (must be diesel and inspected prior to use) requires 4 guys minimum. 2 in the basket (both with personal gas detection meters, trained and current) and two spotters on the ground (both with gas detection, trained and current) and all with radios. If you are happening to be working in vicinity of live pipework or a cable tray, you also require an operator to be present and watch the whole shebang happen. All this work requires Hot Work Permit, Job Hazard Analysis and live plant proximity permit (all submitted 24 hours previous for approval) that takes a few hours to organize, and to get everyone in the right place at once. You need to conduct constant monitoring of the gas detection and a full "sniff" is needed prior to starting and or moving of the vehicle. One man 10 minute jobs now take 5 blokes half a day.

I got tired just writing that, let alone making it all happen....phew.

Sometimes I think things get put into the "too hard pile" and sensible answers are just too difficult from the ones in charge, all you can really do is tow the line and watch yours and your mates back.

From memory the mobile thing was from static electricity(). We could park our work vans right up next to a bowser and make a call but it had to be in the car.
They were worried about about the spark ignition of the petrol cherry picker.
But my biggest hate was we had to wear gloves on Mobil sites for everything, all i can say is try do electrical work with gloves on.
I find the whole 5 guys 4 hours thing to do a one person 10 minute job a pain the a$$ and a waste of time. basically there is no common sence and responsibilty left in the work place. NO body wants to be blamed!
This is why i got out of this line of work, went to work for myself, and boy it is the best thing i've ever done. I'd go back to this type of work but working for myself, get in, get the job done, get out, off to the next one
Good post pando

From my DG/Enclosed space training notes

some of the given reasons (and all but #1 i suspect to be JMSU)

1. they have spark ignition, if the HT leads come loose or begin to break down you now have exposed sparks.
2. They can backfire becuase they have a flamable fuel/air mix all the way from the carby/injectors to the intake valve, if this flashes the increase in pressure in the intake manifold can raise the pressure enough to create flame front up the intake system beyond the air intake and ignite the atmosphere if it contains a flambable mix (I dispute that one, the diesel engine can do the same thing and unlike a petrol engine which will "flood out" the diesel will uncontrolably run away if the atmosphere contains flamable gas)
3. Petrol engines on over run can emit flame out the exhaust.
4. Petrol engines when worked hard can raise their exhaust manifold temperatures above the flash temp of some combustibles (where as the diesel engine will allow you to cool your beers.....)

I've also won the mobile phone creating a spark agrument when I demonstrated the sparks thrown inside a startermotor by pulling the fording band off of my jeeps starter and keying it over. If that aint going to ignite the service station the 1800Mah in a phone battery sure as hell aint going to.

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

I've also won the mobile phone creating a spark agrument when I demonstrated the sparks thrown inside a startermotor by pulling the fording band off of my jeeps starter and keying it over. If that aint going to ignite the service station the 1800Mah in a phone battery sure as hell aint going to.

good work