Thread: Disco 4 Engine System Failure Warning - beware!

Please note:

A manufacturer can do whatever they want with the EXPRESS WARRANTY that they provide with the car....

BUT...

They CANNOT void the IMPLIED WARRANTY as provided under the Trade Practices Act unless they can prove that the modification directly caused the failure.

The Implied Warranty covers 'fit for purpose', 'driveability' and 'safety' aspects.

If you're having trouble talk to the ACCC!

I myself was quite successful in this area!

Jamo

The express warranty is still a contract and they will have plenty of clauses to get out of it.

There is also the 'reasonable expectation' legal argument, as part of the implied warranty as Jamo pointed out.

As an example of extremes; if the gear box fails after three and a half years and 70,000 km it could be argued that it is a 'reasonable expectation' that the gearbox would last conciderably longer. However it would not be a resonable expectation for a bit of plastic trim to last more than five years.

This why when push comes to shove most manufacturers will give goodwill.

OK folks, some followup.

First off, Gordon, I took your post exactly how you meant it and agree that some testing is needed.

But first some relevant info.

I’ve spent some of the day ringing a few LR dealers I deal with and I have left a message with the relevant section at LRA.

I will have to do some followup with LRA and all fairness to them, this is not their doing.

So far only one dealership stated that they had had a problem with an ECU and the problem did not stem from the use of a DBS set up or even the LR make. It seems that the ECU was damaged through improper operation, and from that I thing the inference was that someone had been doing some welding or carrying out other non acceptable work practices.

This means that while I have yet to find a single problem relating to a faulty D4 ECU, this is not to say it hasn’t happened, it’s just that those in the know, don’t know of any problems.

Next, there is, so far to my knowledge, no ban on the fitting of DBS, of any form.

Now while inaccurate info could very well be harmful to my business, the greater problem, if we don’t all watch what we say, the D4 itself, is going to be branded unfairly as a difficult vehicle to work on or with.

When I get some info from LRA, I’ll pass it on.

My personal opinion as to the way LRA treat their customers, to date, since Ford took over, they have been pretty good.

How some of the dealerships treat LR customers does seem to leave a bad taste in many LR owner’s mouths, but I’m very thankful I have lucked onto one of the better dealers, but again, this is just my opinion.

OK, I am now back home after a trip through country NSW in LRA's hire vehicle and thanks for all the info, and thanks DS for your contribution - I could not say it better myself.

Yes, as DS says I am an Electronics Engineer with 43 years experience at the top end of that profession, which is why I chose the extra battery system I did by the way. So, I rely on a little professional knowledge when I suggest that ANYTHING properly connected to a battery which has over 900Amps cranking capacity, in parallel with a 180Amp Alternator is never, and I mean never, going to be able to alter that electrical condition in such a way as to be able to cause any ECU fault indication - period, not without a result of boiled batteies, burned out wiring, lots of greasy brown smoke and very embarrased owners.

Manufacturers of all motor vehicles have a vested interest in supporting these cock and bull stories as it gives them a very convenient escape when the going gets tough.

NO accessory can affect the performance of any low power system (like the ECU) connected to a battery system of this capacity, be it DS's or any other manufacturer. If the ECU is that sensitive, then there is a very major design fault with its own power supply and/or signal line filtering!!!

OK, that is cleared up. You have to remember that this fault occurred after 6 hours of continuous driving, so every battery in the vehicle would be as near fully charged as possible, so why would we get an "Engine system failure?" based on low battery voltage? Is that not a good question? Duh! Most probably because something in the ENGINE failed would be my guess!!!! Certainly not an extra battery which is totally removed from the ENGINE.

So, don't let anyone tell you that these extra battery systems can affect the ECU - it just will not happen. To test myself, I asked two other people in Electrical Engineering departments at Universities as I do a lot of work with them and their views were exactly the same as mine - if anyone tried to pull that one, they both suggested they would last less than 10 seconds in court - they even offered so they could have some fun!! No add-on can cause such problems in these conditions.

OK, what can the fault be? It is obviously an "Engine System Failure" because that is what the car said. I have to say LRA are doing all they can to sort this out, and I credit them with the effort as they have and do appear to have recognised the validity of what I say above. I am told the problem is that there are some 70 odd sensors in the Engine which, alone or in combination, can give rise to this general "Engine Systems Failure" warning.

Complicating this is the fact that the full information on computer problems are not held with dealers, only LRA technical, so any fault of this nature means the vehicle has to end up back in Sydney if the front end dealer does not have the information to effect the repair. Mine is in Sydney now. In addition, it appears as if the fault logging files in the ECU are rudimentary at best, and may even be deleted from time to time, or by software upgrades, so the real cause of the fault may never be known. I am sure that as the vehicles develop technically, this aspect of fault identification will improve. At least I hope it will.

I know my original post was a little "strong", Toomie, but the fact remains that a loss of power in any vehicle is a dangerous thing. If it is a single event, I agree with you, the luck of the draw.

However, as there is a history of it in these vehicles if you search the blog sites, there is a cause to wonder if there is a type problem, not just a series of single unrelated events. If it is unrelated events, that is fine, but if this does have the potential to be a type problem, I make no apologies for saying that the work should be done to see if the recall option is one which should be considered by LR. I certainly would not feel very good if I decided not to say something and then one of my LR mates ended up creamed!

Phil, I presume you've covered the obvious, but just in case ....

If the engine overheats, the main ECU algorithms will act to reduce power and prevent head damage. This can be quite dramatic, and will flag an "engine systems" fault. In my case (towing a large caravan up the Darling Escarpment in Perth in 42deg heat), the fan was not working correctly. Although viscous, it is also under electrical control and the pins on the connector had come loose. So although I saw the fan working everytime I opened the bonnet, it wasn't until I put the car under load that the issue developed, as even on a hot day, the viscous action alone was sufficient to keep the engine within temp range.

And of course, if there was also a fault with your temp gauge ...........

Cheers,

Gordon

PS Hmm, I would have thought a spike through the earth circuit _could_ affect the low power devices, much like when you jump start or (in the extreme) weld on a vehicle. Could some DBS systems, if not properly wired, conceivably do this?

PPS ... especially noting that the D4 has a voltage monitor on the earth terminal that we are told is rather sensitive - ie don't draw large current via the battery -ve. The D3 didn't have this.

Hi GG, Thanks for that good advice and yes I did. The temp was under control, gauge in the normal state and it was actuallu about 12 degrees outside, just when Victorias was having floods, so temperature is not a problem - that should also come up with the temperature alarm, which it did not. It never did reset anyway, even when I rebooted the ECU manually.

Yes, welding on a vehicle and all bets are off, that produces all sorts of spikes which can kill low power ECU's if they are not well armoured. Optical isolators do this, but I do not know if LR has gone this route, I would assume not yet. But no, Earth connectors were nice and tight!

I understand there is a negative terminal current sense on these vehicles, between the battery negative and earth, which is why you should not jump start across the battery, my understanding and correct me if I am wrong anyone who has better information, is that you have to jump start from battery positive and to chassis earth, not battery earth.

In this case, no, none of that would apply, but really good positive suggestions and thanks for those, well said and suggestuions appreciated. Don't get me k\wrong here, this is a bloody good vehicle, I love it and I am not slagging it at all, but just this particular one has a few tricky problems.

IMO LR's designers have the wrong priority regarding faults that could possibly damage the engine. There appears to be no warning to allow the driver to get out of or not get into a dangerous situation before looking after the engine. My TD5 D2 had the same dangerous logic whereby no warning was issued before cutting power which left me on the wrong side of the road having passed a vehicle but with no power to get a safe distance in front, so had to cut in whilst slowing! I have a tractor that will shut down if it overheats but gives a 30-second warning that the engine will stop unless the over-ride button is pressed to allow the tractor to continue if, for example, it is on a railway crossing - and that's a 1998 tractor! LR, wakeup!

I find it intriguing that LR for the US market include instructions on how to restart the D4's engine on the move to overcome/clear the reduced power message whereas for other markets the intructions are to stop the vehicle first. I have practiced this procedure in anticipation, but will be of no use if such a fault occurs whilst overtaking.

Edit: Mine had the reduce power msg once whilst driving along my lane so restarted the engine without stopping.

Originally Posted by Phil

NO accessory can affect the performance of any low power system (like the ECU) connected to a battery system of this capacity, be it DS's or any other manufacturer. If the ECU is that sensitive, then there is a very major design fault with its own power supply and/or signal line filtering!!!

There was such a problem with early D3s & RRS but it was inappropriate logic in the software giving the appearance of an unsuitable DBS. A software update made the pussy-footing obsolete. My simple VSR setup works fine!