Performance chips> Are they worth the money???

wow thanks fellas!!!

hey look , here's one to throw the sheep amongst the wolves... I emailed Pete from Bell autos (the BAS tuning guys) . I asked him if i can get the full 740 nm potential from my de-tuned engine.... his response was - Quote:

"Hi
They tune up the same, all components i have checked ate the same on both engines.

pete" (that's a direct cut and paste from my email)


Ok... so this chap Pete is highly respected amongst us forum members, I don't know what to make of this???? he says they are the same...



Gordon I'll try again on that TOPIx page... the low flow injection is also found on the landrover advertising, also Ill try to get in contact with a land rover tech from england , just don't know how to contact them, that's all....


Im going to start with the service department where i bought the D4 from. they should have part numbers for the different models(specifically the fuel injectors) At least I'm looking for something specific now:D


so in conclusion, I still have OCD and will continue to search


If i have any answers Ill be sure to post,



Thanks so much fellas....



Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilbobaggins

wow thanks fellas!!!

hey look , here's one to throw the sheep amongst the wolves... I emailed Pete from Bell autos (the BAS tuning guys) . I asked him if i can get the full 740 nm potential from my de-tuned engine.... his response was - Quote:

"Hi
They tune up the same, all components i have checked ate the same on both engines.

pete" (that's a direct cut and paste from my email)


Ok... so this chap Pete is highly respected amongst us forum members, I don't know what to make of this???? he says they are the same...

Bill

---

Was talking to Pete last night on an unrelated matter for a client, and mentioned this seeming disparity. His response was that on the motors they have done in the UK, he's never actually seen the low-flow injectors fitted to the blocks, both for the D4 and the Evoque. So they're specified, but not used in the UK as far as he can see.

It would be foolish to just assume that this is the case globally (different markets, tax regimes etc), so checking with local dealers/independents would be advisable.

So with a remap, in the UK Pete can return the car to the same level of tune as the std SDV6 (his "OEM" tune), or they can tune it to the level of a tuned SDV6, as long as the injectors are the same. However, an intercept chip is likely specific to the quoted outputs of the TDV6 or SDV6 (ie they generally offer "20%" increase over whatever the current output is), so doubt it could be done with these.

Cheers,

Gordon

Hey Gordon

I spoke to chip express 3 weeks ago.. another good chap, he told me exactly what you are saying. that is that the add on chip can only increase whats already in play, i totally agree with what you say...

Im exhausted from searching the internet, i can only seem to find one injector listed for the D4: boch part number 0445116013 that's the piezo injector

also quoted as: 9X2Q-9K546-DB... Those 2 codes refer to the same exact part, the only injector for the D4 that i could find!!!

mate i have searched the TOPIx website for 5 hours, could not find the information that you have seen

I spoke to landrover down here, they have my injector listed in landrover codes they resemble: L017924 the end number changes depending on what number injector it is,

from all the information i have read: fuel rail pressure, turbo boost, injection timing etc are all controlled from the CPU, I believe that's where the power difference is coming from, I can see no evidence to the contrary...

Further i have seen a 2013 range rover sport advert claiming this low flow injection stuff and yet they are quoting the higher output figures.

IMHO Landrover could be telling us porkies to justify the higher output motors price vs the entry level...

So according to Pete you can get The full potential from a de-tuned 211ps 155kw 520nm spec engine as in England they seem to be the same....
I believe Pete knows his stuff, I think he may have even convinced you.. so maybe a standard motor can produce the same output with BAS remap.... at least in England....

Gordon where i'm stumped is that quote you found on TOPIx - Where it talks about" not istalling a low flow injector into the high output motor due to not enough fuel etc..." i believe you I just cant find the bloody thing!!!



Just another point, Landrover Engines are made by Ford... Would they have all these different specs? wouldn't it just be easier to program it in and be done with it... The bosch ECM on the D4 was supposed to be uncrackable... yet Pete Has nailed it in house(LEGEND!!!) , im thinking of sending him my ECU, just dont know when i can spare the vehicle

Gordon did you say the injectors had different part numbers, you wouldn't by some miracle have the codes would you? IF you did that would really help me!!!

I read something relating to low flow systems i couldn't quite understand it, I don't think it it was related to injector flow but i will revisit the articles and report back if I actually Make sense of it

On a different note i didn't know you and Pete were friends, good work!!

anyway thanks for reply Gordon I look forward to hearing anything you have to say

Cheers

Bill :D

I've read a few of the posts here and for other reasons was absorbing the latest on the D4:twisted: (I wish...). It appears that the SDV6 has a significantly different air-fuel delivery architecture to the TDV6... different (higher flow) injectors, sequential turbo chargers instead of a single turbo, and therefore a completely different fuel map which can't be replicated simply by tweaking the TDV6 set up ...

Seems to me you can play at the edges with the TDV6 etc but you need a holistic approach if you want to "turn up the gain" as they say... It's probable that given things are so new, additional injector part numbers etc which would enable a part-by-part comparison haven't made it to the various database as yet.

I don't know the details of the D4 sequential turbo set up, but the M-class "blue tec" turbo setups are reputedly spinning well in excess of 200,000 rpm... I'm thinking the D4 is probably close to this as well ... that's a lot of revs ...

[QUOTE=Hoges;1865015]I've read a few of the posts here and for other reasons was absorbing the latest on the D4:twisted: (I wish...). It appears that the SDV6 has a significantly different air-fuel delivery architecture to the TDV6... different (higher flow) injectors, sequential turbo chargers instead of a single turbo, a]/QUOTE]

As far as I am aware all 3 litre TDV6/SDV6 engines are sequential turbos = no single turbos on the 3 litres - are you getting the 2.7 TDV6 mixed up with the lower spec 3.0 TDV6??

Garry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilbobaggins

mate i have searched the TOPIx website for 5 hours, could not find the information that you have seen
.......

Gordon where i'm stumped is that quote you found on TOPIx - Where it talks about" not istalling a low flow injector into the high output motor due to not enough fuel etc..." i believe you I just cant find the bloody thing!!!

---

Nice you believe me ...........

You need to look in the correct section. I've needed to get on TOPIX last night for some other info, so also downloaded the document in question. The two 3.0 diesels are under the 2013 D4 documents, but only one of the engine documents have the full specs (so don't choose the "STD FLOW" variant). WSM-16779, Sc 303-04A, under "System Operation and Component Description" gives the warning on the 2 types of injectors.

TOPIX does not give part numbers, so won't help in that regard.

To recap:

* the injectors are specified by LR as being different. The tuning map in the ECU is different. There could be other differences in tolerances etc, I haven't checked through every relevant page of TOPIX. But note that TOPIX does vaguely mention differences in "other modules".
* BAS state they've never seen a low-fuel injector. I'd note however that one doesn't generally pull the injectors out of a motor when remapping, so this is really anecdotal evidence, possibly based on one or two motors in the UK that have been rebuilt. As long as the BAS remap was not requiring delivery above the limit of the low-flow injection system, there would be no way they could tell. Also note that in the UK only the "Commercial" version of the D4 has the 155Kw output, so may be spec'd differently.
* regardless of the above quibbles, an intercept chip will not boost a 155kw motor to the performance of a chipped (or remapped) 188Kw motor. It may, however get you close or just above the std 188Kw

Cheers,

Gordon

Well mr Gordon

I went to the L/ROVER service department, I quoted 2 different VIN numbers, one from a highpowered model one from mine(low powered)..... they use the VIN numbers to generate the specs of each vehicle just as the TOPIx does... the results: SAME EXACT INJECTOR PART!!!!

So theoretically , if they needed to replace my faulty injector they specify the same part.... (for either vehicle).....

Further to emphasize the point, I asked the service department for clarification to this so called low flow system, they said the head mechanic went to a landrover update course for the new model, he was told they were mechanically identical in engines and transmission and only that the ECM programming was different, he said the low flow characteristics of the engine were related to fuel rail pressure, timing, air mixture which is all controlled by the ECM, He even went on to say, they can't/wont reprogram the ECU settings(not allowed), but said I could get it re-flashed and have the same exact power as the other one...


OK at this point all proof points to the same engine, just ECM programming differences...

Pete from BAS agrees,
landrover Australia agree,
The parts has the same listing for either spec(according to landrover parts department)
I can only find one listing for the piezo injector related to the LR4
Conflicting information regarding low flow injection on range rover sport
All reviews refer to the entry level as de-tuned

at this point ill play the percentages and state the following IMHO:

YES , THE ENTRY LEVEL 520NM LAND ROVER CAN PRODUCE THE SAME POWER AS THE higher spec SE/HSE 600NM-even in a higher state of tune..

A Reflash from BAS should do the trick!!!!

Guys the information and reasons I have given are based on my own research !!! i do not claim to be correct it's only my opinion, i'm reasonably machanically minded but not a genius by any means.... I guess other than stripping 2 motors down side by side i think we can only theorize on the information given, you all make valid points(thank you so much for that), i've exhausted myself,

for me the old saying if it quacks like a duck, walks like a ducks, s***s like a duck its a duck!!!!

so folks thanks for tuning in, by all means correct me if you find more info

gordon ill try to investigate the info on TOPIx further, right now im going to bed

cheers everyone;)

Bill

@Bill
Now all we need is for someone to prove the theory and get the remap done. Are you going to do it?

Hey gordon, according to topix This vehicle a HSE is still referred to as a STD FLOW SERIES yet if you scroll down it clearly states engine torque 600NM/183KW ?????? Mate have i missed something ????? My vehicle is also referred to as STD FLOW SERIES just that the power is down 520NM/153KW???????? What am i missing?

• Transmission: 8 SPD AUTO TRANS ZF 8HP70
• CAB style: 5 DOOR
• Drive: 4 WHL R/H FULL TIME DRIVE
• Engine: 3.0L 24V V6 TC DSL STD FLOW
• Series: 3.0 DIESEL STD FLOW SERIES
• Colour:FUJI WHITE
• Trim:INTERIOR SATIN BLK WLNT VENEER

• DIESEL FUEL CAPABILITY
• PVC FACIA
• JAPAN & AUSTRALIA GVM
• FRONT PARKING AID
• LOADSPACE MOULDINGS
• KEYLESS START
• ATC AIR CONDITIONING
• CONSOLE-WITH CLOSED BIN
• I/P FAC CONTR-EBONY BLACK
• ANALOGUE AUDIO BROADCAST
• FRONT FOG LAMPS
• DU P/HEATED/MEMORY FOLD BACK
• 255/55 R19 A/T
• HEADLAMP POWER WASH
• SOLIHULL ASSEMBLY (UK)
• TRUNK BADGE-SDV6 HSE
• GOODYEAR TIRE VENDOR
• HLDF SCREEN
• REVERSE PARKING AID
• ELECTRIC WINDSHIELD DEFROSTER
• HI LINE AUDIO SYS - 600 W
• SEVEN PASS SEAT CONFIGURATION
• LESS SPECIAL EQUIPMENT PACKAGE
• XENON HEADLAMPS
• CD HOLDER-CONSOLE
• FRESH AIR HEATER
• LESS TV RECEIVER
• MOLDED GEAR SHIFT KNOB
• REAR BENCH SEATS 1X2
• ELECT FRT SEAT ADJ DRV MEMORY
• REAR SEAT CLIMATE CONTROL
• LICENCE INDICATOR
• HEATED WASHER JETS-W'SHIELD
• NAVIGATION CENTER - ROW 2
• AMBIENT LIGHTING-INTERIOR
• SPARE WHEEL-CONVENTIONAL ALLOY
• RR SEAT-35/30/35 SPLIT
• AUTOMATIC HEADLAMP LEVELING
• SCISSOR JACK
• EXT MIRROR FINISH-BODY COLOR
• ENGINE TORQUE - 600NM/183KW
• RAIN SENSOR-WINDSCREEN MOUNTED
• OPTIKOOL GLASS
• EXTERIOR DOOR HANDLE-OBERON
• LESS TRAFFIC MESSAGE CHANNEL
• DOME MAPLIGHT
• GRILLE-TITAN
• STEERING WHEEL-LEATHER WRAPPED
• DISCOVERY 4 SALES BADGE
• REAR BUMPER-PLASTIC-PAINTED
• ELECTROCHROMIC INSIDE MIRROR
• LESS KIT-TIRE REPAIR SERVICE
• FOUR CORNER AIR SUSPENSION
• AUSTRALIA OWNER HANDBK PKG
• MANUAL SPEED CONTROL
• TOW HITCH RECEIVER NAS
• LUMBAR SEAT SUPT-DRIVER PWR
• KPH SPEEDOMETER
• LUNAR CONTRAST STITCHING
• CARGO AREA COVER
• FLOORWELL LIGHTS
• SUNVISOR,DUAL-PASS ILLUM
• PWR TILT/SLIDE SUN ROOF
• HEATED SEATS - FRT/REAR
• ROOF RAILS - LR1
• NORMAL TEMP ZONES
• 19 INCH 7-SPOKE ALLOY WHEEL
• INT EBONY CARPET-LR
• OPEN STYLE REAR AXLE-STD DIFF
• SPECIAL VALUE PACK E
• PERSONAL TELEPHONE INTEGRATION
• 12N 7PIN ELEC SOCKET/HARNESS
• I/P DISPLAY LANG STRIP-ENGLISH
• VOICE ACTIVATED CONTROLS
• TIPTRONIC GEARSHIFT
• STRG COL-MAN TILT/REACH ADJUST
• REAR VIEW CAMERA-FIXED
• LESS AUTO DIPPING MIRROR SYS
• HEATED STEERING WHEELS
• AUTO HEADLAMPS-FOLLOW ME HOME
• PUDDLE LAMPS-FRONT/REAR
• CARGO COMPARTMENT NET
• FRT SEAT ARMREST-FULLY ADJUST.
• LESS TIRE PRESSURE SENSORS
• EURO STAGE 4 EMISSIONS
• AUSTRALIA

hello there Fossicker

I'm feeling your pain" too much debaiting not enough action"

Im concerned that if i get the BAS remap i run the warranty risk issue!!! This can be overcome by getting a clone ECM... However either way i'd have to send over my original ECM.... I'd happily do that the only concern i have is its overseas and there is alot of down time concerned... id have to pull it out send it and then get it tuned and returned to me(1 month at least).... imagine it gets lost in the post??? how would you explain that to landrover when requesting a new ECM (It has to be coded to the vehicle) crap crap crap,

Now if i'm wrong about the identical engine theory (the engine does have these differences) and mr BAS tunes it to my specs it may not work, its not like i can take to him to try it!!! so there are a few risks related to being in Australia, if i was was in England id do it straight away!!!!

I have spoken to Pete(BAS Tuning) relating to an interface module that he sells, he says its not on the table yet as the ECM needs more cracking!!!

As much as i love the idea i need to consider the risks and the timing!!!! i may be going to england mid year , might take my ECM on a holiday!!

Just realised your in melbourne....

cheers

Bill