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Thread: Recovery points and liability.

  1. #31
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    I guess I should expand on my comments.

    - first I was not there and so I am all full of speculation.
    -second apologies if this comes across as opinionated - honestly the below is my musings on recovery. Take it as such and totally ignore me if you want. Chances are though if you get yourself stuck down the beach at Cape Flattery or the Cotterill or on the track into Lookout Point or your swimming through big or little swamp east of Kalpower and I happen along... if you want my help Im gonna do it my way!!! I guess in essence I totally agree with Dougal. A recovery is a function of the people doing it and their experience and abilities. Not the specific technique they use.

    Many years ago after having a rated shackle let go during a slow snatch recovery in mud I have since not used a snatch. I have of course seen plenty of other failed snatch recoveries but thankfully no serious trauma. I have also seen plenty of failed winch recoveries. Just on Last Saturday I had a 16mm dyneema rope through a snatch block let go while trying to winch 5Tonne of tree off the shed. A bit of a bang, everything hit the deck. Re-assessed changed things up and got it done.
    All techniques can fail but slow winching with Dyneema is pretty bloody safe in my experience. I have had three or four rope breaks in the last 7 years that I have used dyneema, all of them were wholly uneventful compared with the stored energy of a failed snatch or failed steel rope recovery.

    I use lots of dyneema, winches, shovels and a 5m drag chain to anchor winch vehicle when necessary. Just to put this in perspective - between my antics and mates and then random phone calls from mates of mates I would be involved in more recoveries than most city slickers Most good proper recoveries are at this time of year when the southern cape is sticky.

    In sand - I can see the benefit of a snatch - you are never really bogged in sand just failing to proceed. In mud when a vehicle is proper stuck like the 80 series in this thread I want as much control and safety as possible. Time is likely my least important factor.

    SO if I was involved in the above presented recovery.
    First would be looking at that huge lump of dirt in front of the cruiser I would likely guess a recovery from rear would make most sense. If too messy behind then perhaps some road enhancement via trees affected by Stihl disease. (heck with a shovel and a chainsaw Malcolm Douglas et al would have reveresed that cruiser out of that)
    If behind recovery was impossible then start looking to dig out those front tyres and make a ramp out to winch up. Obviously the picture is scarce on details but the edge of that clay pan will likely have a good tree candidate for a winch or for a winch vehicle to chain to for support. Obviously length to a good anchor can be an issue but Didnt I say carry plenty of Dyneema! (2 or 3 - 30m hanks of Dyneema would weigh in the same as a snatch strap)

    Anyways Im sure you get the picture.

    Steve
    '95 130 dual cab fender (gone to a better universe)
    '10 130 dual cab fender (getting to know it's neurons)

  2. #32
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    Myself and a few others where probably 150m away from this sand bogging and attempted recovery. We did not hear the noise when the incident occured, we just saw the Patrol driver get out and walk around the back of his car and put his hands on his head. At that point we went over to assist.

    The 80s driver had attempted to drive out backwards and forwards again only to dig a deeper hole.
    I'm sure the Patrol driver just rushed the recovery for no good reason and should of assessed the situation more prior to attempting anything.

    As said with quite a lot of digging and the use of a snatch strap and quite a "lite" pull the 80s drove out backwards fairly easily.

    I have great confidence in the use of snatch straps, but care must be taken and options / proper technique must be fully assessed prior to any recovery.

    The proper recovery attachment points where not easy to see in this case due to the ground level, but the one on the passenger side was visible.
    It's a good idea to paint your recovery points with either Red, Yellow, Orange, White or a Fluoro colour so they are not mistaken with the wrong recovery points.
    2014 SDV6 HSE - LLAMS, Tuff Ant Tree Sliders, Tuff Ant 18" rims, Nitto Ridge Grappler tyres 265/65 R18, Custom Lipo4 battery, Custom Drawer storage system https://www.box.com/s/jem0ilac3cner2mexq64

  3. #33
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    I have great confidence in the use of snatch straps, but care must be taken and options / proper technique must be fully assessed prior to any recovery.

    I have great confidence that the GU rear door plus fitting cost old mate or old mates insurance company about a thousand bucks...

    quite a "lite" pull the 80s drove out backwards fairly easily

    Chicken or the egg - everyone running around yanking 4wds with a snatch encourages people to try a yanking technique FIRST. Before snatch straps were the cool kid on the block hemp rope and capstans got all manner of vehicles unstuck I guess I learnt my lesson and I reckon Mr GU has too. Each to there own I guess. When things go bad you change your go to technique.

    I cant think of a recovery in the last 7 years where I would have preferred a dynamic snatch technique????


    S
    '95 130 dual cab fender (gone to a better universe)
    '10 130 dual cab fender (getting to know it's neurons)

  4. #34
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    Purely out of interest - is there a recovery section in the GOE Handbook?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by benji View Post
    Let's not forget winching can be just as hard on recovery points.

    A good heavy snatch will have about 7-8 tonnes of load (4x4 action measured it with a paj towing out an f series in the sand).
    A double line pull on a 9000 can yield 8tonne.
    I've had the back windows on my classic creaking when being anchor vehicle for a pathfinder and camper. I've never had that happen on a snatch though.
    That is a seriously heavy snatch to pull 7-8 ton.
    Remember back in physics class, force = mass x acceleration.

    To pull 7-8 ton requires a 2.5 ton vehicle to pull around 3g in decelleration. That's a pull that will throw everyone and everything in the pulling vehicle against it's stops.
    People will be thrown against their seat-belts, everything loose will be thrown forwards (presuming snatching from the rear) etc.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MY14D4 View Post
    Purely out of interest - is there a recovery section in the GOE Handbook?
    Not really - it covers the pertinent bits regarding the recovery points and their approximate ratings, but generic 4WD recovery is not really a focus for our handbook, which concentrates on the T5 (Terrain Response vehicles) features and differences. There are several good handbooks out there that cover recovery and basic 4WD technique (eg RMP has a few out!).

    Cheers,

    Gordon

  7. #37
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    That is a good point, not all snatch straps are not equal, they have different ratings they also have a use by date (not literally) I was checking my recovery bag the other day and realised one of my snatch straps was 20 years old from when I had a suzuki Vitara. Not only was it way too light for my current needs it was probably perished.

    I think sometimes when failures happen it can be gear that is too light and or too old.

    I threw that one out.

  8. #38
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    Thats right Dougal. It straightened the rear end of the paj up really quick! Their aim was to test the upper level of snatch forces in the real world. I thought it was brave using a pajero for this, a defender or the f truck would have been better choices. They had a tj there too, but they thought it didn't represent the weight of the average four wheel drive.

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