Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

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Originally Posted by 1nando

The original comparison is: which is better offroad?

In my opinion my defender is a lot like my trucks. It chugs along and does what i ned too.

Off road it comes to life, gives me feedback through the steering and i feel engaged with the vehicle.

Offroad capability is what you wanted to compare. My thoughts are (110 vs d4):

-Defender tough platform due to its working vehicle design and heritage
-has bigger wheels and tyres. Real offroad size tyres not low profile street tyres!
-has better body clearance when axles are under full articulation/flex
-better approach and exit angles
Def d4
Axel clearance 250 209-216
Body clearance 314 216
Ramp angle 149.7 158
Approach 48.7 32.2
Departure 35.6 22.2
- spare tyre located in much better poistion
- more engaging drive, feed back is fantastic offroad.....vague on road admittedly. This isnt a fact but my opinion!
-lighter: def 2 ton d4=2.5
-bigger pay load to carry food, drinks, spares etc
-roof carring capacity def=150kg d4=75kg.......4wding usually requires extra gear so this is pretty handy

How did i do?

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Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....

*First of all, that's not how you spell "axle". :-)
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
*Stock D4 has a maximum of around 310mm clearance at its lowest point. That's at Emergency height, which also improves the approach / departure angles as well.
* A Defender is a better load-carrying vehicle. That helps make it a good tourer, and work vehicle. It has no relevance to its off road ability.

Most LR nuts have driven a Defender. Most haven't driven a D4, so I sympathise with the fact that you're somewhat at a disadvantage in this argument. But try to stick with what's relevant, and gain some understanding of the opposition vehicle.

For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by frantic

First there are a few measurable things that you can use.
How about RTI? (ramp travel index):D a defender from stock can do around 540- 580, it's suspension is easily modified for far better. A D3/4 can do about 520, BUT, and it's a big one, thats at standard disco height, raise it to offroad settings and it get far worse, around 25% worse! This is important if you need full contact to move forward, not one or two wheels waving to the horizon. :D

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??? Have you ever driven a D4 in an RTI test? Neither have I, but I've driven a D3 ;)

The D4 is designed to have maximum flex at off road height - but you have to select low range to open up the cross axle valves when doing a ramp test.

Cheers

Gordon

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....

*First of all, that's not how you spell "axle". :-)
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
*Stock D4 has a maximum of around 310mm clearance at its lowest point. That's at Emergency height, which also improves the approach / departure angles as well.
* A Defender is a better load-carrying vehicle. That helps make it a good tourer, and work vehicle. It has no relevance to its off road ability.

Most LR nuts have driven a Defender. Most haven't driven a D4, so I sympathise with the fact that you're somewhat at a disadvantage in this argument. But try to stick with what's relevant, and gain some understanding of the opposition vehicle.

For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1nando

Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....

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Good post. We can happily agree to disagree.

Cheers
Gordon

I must be a hipster. I just bought a new pair of sandals. Also, the other day someone asked if I was growing a pony tail.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

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Originally Posted by ozscott

What does better mean? What are the parameters? Does it mean able to go the furthest over rocks at low range speed? Does it mean go further in mud? Does it mean having the best visibity of objects? Does it mean least likely to end up on a tow truck if bashed around? Does it mean the best wading ability? Does it include those with the widest aftermarket bolt on gear? Does it mean highest carrying capacity off road? Does it mean the one that streses its motor and drivetrain least offroad? Does it mean best traction up.steep hills? Is it the one that gives the particular driver or the average driver the most confidence of overcoming obstacles or finishing a long safari. ? The list would go on. And that is stock trim. When it comes to modification of course the live axle vehicles are able to be modified so that is a consideration.

One thing is for sure Defender and independently suspended Land Rovers give great choice from 2 polar opposed ends of the 4wd spectrum (not ability) and those who drive each typically have a particular view. It would be incredibly boring if LR only made one style wouldnt it.

That 130 looks like it has a very long tray...and was probably massively abused. Its the first deefer chassis breakage photo i have seen...now Tritons and other Jap utes....seen quite a few of them.

All the best
Cheers

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You've hit the nail on the head mate ...


Trying to get a handle on what the broad spectrum of off-road scenarios are ... or even the fact that there is a spectrum (which is a tad subjective) has proven quite difficult for some on this thread.


Cheers.

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

??? Have you ever driven a D4 in an RTI test? Neither have I, but I've driven a D3 ;)

The D4 is designed to have maximum flex at off road height - but you have to select low range to open up the cross axle valves when doing a ramp test.

Cheers

Gordon

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Umm no.on both counts
Simple physics,mean you cannot lift the D4 xx mm higher and have more travel. More up but far less down. In a live axle like a defender you can increase wheel travel/articulation and body clearance by fitting a simple kit like gwyn lewis and 2in springs lift.
RTI have been done by many various groups, not going to search on my phone.

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Originally Posted by TerryO

Ok this is not meant to create friction between the flat earthers over in the Defender section and the Latte set here, so, believe it or not I am asking a serious question.
Why? Well with all this talk of how rear new or late model 110 Defenders (Puma) are and how expensive they have become I went and checked Carpoint and found a 2015 Limited edition 110 second hand for over $90k. The only thing that looked different was the mainly orange paint. But even so other older higher mileage 110's were still in my opinion very expensive for what you get, so are they worth it and are they better off road than a late model similar spec Disco?

My thoughts on this well the only real claim to fame a Defender has is its serious off road ability, but seriously is a late model fairly standard Defender better off road when it gets in to the serious rough stuff than similar modded D3/4?

Now I'm not talking about a twin locked Defender on 35" muddies with a four inch suspension and body lift. I'm trying, if possible, to compare similar modified and spec vehicles.

To make it fair both vehicles need to be similar in spec and the closest to a Disco is a 110. To also keep it fair and comparible they need similar sized and spec tyres so let's say up to the standard OEM Defender size which is just under 32" from memory, but they can both be Muddies plus what ever wheels required to fit those tyres. I have included a couple of other mods that you commonly see added to many 4x4's if you go for a day out bashing the tracks up around Lithgow or I bet most other favourite weekend distinctions.

Front bull bar.

Rock sliders

Snorkel

And that is it, no other mods, yes you can remove things like mud flaps etc put the spare in the back if you want to as this costs nothing.

Sure there are plenty of other bits but this is just about trying to compare their off road ability with them as standard and similar spec as possible. I have put rock sliders in because I'm not talking about actually testing these machines with the least amount of panel damage. Plus compare their value for money now a Defender can cost as much as a new D4.

So given this fairly mild spec which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender?

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A few have got all hung up over the word better, for no good reason either that I can see if they had read the whole post.

If the whole post is read in context then I believe it's reasonably clear what the basic criteria is and the kind of conditions one could reasonably expect in such a comparison at their local reasonably challenging 4wd tracks that many frequent on weekends for a bit of fun. That being the kind of off road 4x4 driving conditions were mud tyres, rock sliders, front bull bar and a snorkel might be needed to get you through.
Plus to make it relevant and fair I made it the two most similar in size and seating capacity wagons that LR make in both ranges, then I put them on similar sized and spec tyres so again they are equal and the vehicles ability is tested not how big or aggressive a particular vehicles tyres are and the advantage that would give.

So to move the focus away from the word better, let's say which of the two vehicles is the more capable serious off roader in this spec? ... ;)

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Originally Posted by frantic

Umm no.on both counts
Simple physics,mean you cannot lift the D4 xx mm higher and have more travel. More up but far less down.

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You're forgetting the cross-axle valving, which will force the opposite wheel down. You get more "up" and a little less "down".

I have the figures for my RTI somewhere - I did it at on-road, off-road and extended heights. My best score was at off-road height. I'll see if I can dig them out.

Cheers,

Gordon

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Originally Posted by gghaggis

Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....
[...]
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
[...]
For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.

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1. In off-road situations a more rigid chassis is not necessarily a plus. Chassis flex is not equal to "weaker".

2. You are not overlooking that TDCi's change throttle map when low range is selected? This too allows for far more controlled delivery of torque.