Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

There is this on going misconception by some that late model Disco's cannot fit 18" rims with the present so called big brake package, this is not correct.

GOA and several other suppliers around the globe have for years sold 18" wheels that fit the D4's larger brakes.

LR can fit and supply 18" rims if they chose to with the present brake package, but they choose not too.

Equally so as has been said in South Africa LR supply new a D4 with 17" rims, so they have that option as well if they wanted to sell that spec Disco here in Australia. Again they choose not too.

I do not believe for one minute the story told by LR that this is about needing bigger brakes because the D4 is so heavy. A diesel or V6 petrol D3 weighed as much as a D4 and had smaller brakes and passed ADR's easily, which I do not believe have changed. The V8 had larger brakes but still fitted 18" rims no problem.
This is all about making it hard with standard wheels to fit larger or even decent off road spec tyres, which annoyed plenty of punters when they went 19" rims by the way, so they had to have a excuse and the excuse given was brakes which is hard to argue against.

There are plenty of other brand 2.5 ton 4x4's out there that run 17" and 18" rims and brakes to suit and they pass ADR's and are sold here, which makes a mockery of this weight and brake excuse that LR uses to justify 19" rims which have the worst choice of off road tyres available ion this country.

Originally Posted by TerryO

There is this on going misconception by some that late model Disco's cannot fit 18" rims with the present so called big brake package, this is not correct.

GOA and several other suppliers around the globe have for years sold 18" wheels that fit the D4's larger brakes.

LR can fit and supply 18" rims if they chose to with the present brake package, they choose not too.

Equally so as has been said in South Africa LR supply new a D4 with 17" rims, so they have that option as well if they wanted to sell that spec Disco here in Australia. Again they choose not too.

I do not believe for one minute the story told by LR that this is about needing bigger brakes because the D4 is so heavy. A diesel or V6 petrol D3 weighed as much as a D4 and had smaller brakes and passed ADR's easily, which I do not believe have changed. The V8 had larger brakes but still fitted 18" rims no problem.
This is all about making it hard with standard wheels to fit larger or even decent off road spec tyres, which annoyed plenty of punters when they went 19" rims by the way, so they had to have a excuse and the excuse given was brakes which is hard to argue against.

There are plenty of other brand 2.5 ton 4x4's out there that run 17" and 18" rims and brakes to suit and they pass ADR's and are sold here, which makes a mockery of this weight and brake excuse that LR uses to justify 19" rims which have the worst choice of off road tyres available ion this country.

Yeah, whilst I can't comment on the 'agenda' of JLR, I was just about to mention that I don't swallow the size necessity argument.

An LC200 for example weighs as much if not more than a D4. Its V8 diesel also produces more torque and power than the Disco, yet it has smaller wheels. I guess it has smaller brakes.

Now, I believe it doesn't brake as well as a D4 but it obviously passed the government requirements.

My D4 (2.7 litre TDV6) came from the factory with 18 inch rims. With all the crap I have in/on it, I'd say it would be heavier than most D4's on the road. The (smaller) brakes in it still work much better than any other 4WD I've driven, including Landcruisersand Prados.

I really can't see why the slight increase in power and torque that comes with the 3 litre engine necessitates an increase in brake size. I mean, it's not as though you stomp on the anchors while your other foot is still buried to the floor on the go pedal, is it.

In my opinion, the larger 19 inch, and especially the ridiculous 20 inch rims, are much more about looks and the latest "trends" than they are about functionality.

Originally Posted by TerryO

There is this on going misconception by some that late model Disco's cannot fit 18" rims with the present so called big brake package, this is not correct.

GOA and several other suppliers around the globe have for years sold 18" wheels that fit the D4's larger brakes.

LR can fit and supply 18" rims if they chose to with the present brake package, they choose not too.

Equally so as has been said in South Africa LR supply new a D4 with 17" rims, so they have that option as well if they wanted to sell that spec Disco here in Australia. Again they choose not too.

I do not believe for one minute the story told by LR that this is about needing bigger brakes because the D4 is so heavy. A diesel or V6 petrol D3 weighed as much as a D4 and had smaller brakes and passed ADR's easily, which I do not believe have changed. The V8 had larger brakes but still fitted 18" rims no problem.
This is all about making it hard with standard wheels to fit larger or even decent off road spec tyres, which annoyed plenty of punters when they went 19" rims by the way, so they had to have a excuse and the excuse given was brakes which is hard to argue against.

There are plenty of other brand 2.5 ton 4x4's out there that run 17" and 18" rims and brakes to suit and they pass ADR's and are sold here, which makes a mockery of this weight and brake excuse that LR uses to justify 19" rims which have the worst choice of off road tyres available ion this country.

Gordon might chime in here (he seems to have inside knowledge) - I understand the bigger brakes relate to the traction control /terrain response system providing a better response - which seems to be case comparing D3 & D4
I'd be very surprised if LR went out of their way to install bigger (read more expensive) brakes just to limit wheel/ tyre choices available on their "most awarded 4wd in the world"

Originally Posted by Meken

Gordon might chime in here (he seems to have inside knowledge) - I understand the bigger brakes relate to the traction control /terrain response system providing a better response - which seems to be case comparing D3 & D4
I'd be very surprised if LR went out of their way to install bigger (read more expensive) brakes just to limit wheel/ tyre choices available on their "most awarded 4wd in the world"

Meken, I might be wrong and I'm sure someone will let me know if I am, but if I remember rightly 18's fit on the rear of a 3.0 D4 without mods and from what I remember others have said if you spend ten minutes with a grinder you can scrub off enough metal from the oversize for no obvious reason front calipers which allows 18's to be fitted.

If that is the case then LR could fit a slightly different caliper with the same size pistons and pad area that would do the job and allow 18's to be fitted which in no way would compromise the braking ability of a D4.

That being the case then this is a actual decision to go down this path not a necessity.

Just back tracking. That d3 dual cab is likely the best thing one could do to the rear end of a d3/4 ....
Andy the tray is not too long. The wheel base is too short.
S

Originally Posted by TerryO

Meken, I might be wrong and I'm sure someone will let me know if I am, but if I remember rightly 18's fit on the rear of a 3.0 D4 without mods and from what I remember others have said if you spend ten minutes with a grinder you can scrub off enough metal from the oversize for no obvious reason front calipers which allows 18's to be fitted.

If that is the case then LR could fit a slightly different caliper with the same size pistons and pad area that would do the job and allow 18's to be fitted which in no way would compromise the braking ability of a D4.

That being the case then this is a actual decision to go down this path not a necessity.

I don't recall seeing anywhere where LR have said they required larger brakes due to weight. I know a few people on this and other threads have suggested that, but it didn't come from LR. As you said, the D3 and D4 are equivalent in weight and size. The various D4 pre-launch info packs said it was to improve the Traction Control and limit fading, which the D3 could be prone to do. Of course, it also improved general stopping ability, but I don't read that as being the primary reason.

The size of the heat fins on the front callipers may have been an over-reaction, but I'd be cautious about modifying them extensively. I took 3mm off a D4 calliper when we were trying to fit the GMAX rims and there didn't seem to be any side-effects, but then we weren't pushing the TC in hot conditions. The GMAX still wouldn't fit without an illegal offset, and the LR 18" rims wouldn't fit at all.

Regarding the off-road ability of the "D5", LRE UK have been told it will be better.

Cheers,

Gordon

Thanks for that Gordon, do you know if there were ever any TC related fading issues with larger brakes on the V8 D3?