Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Originally Posted by 1nando

Compared to the d4 Milo is old school technology, regardless of how much of Milo is original or not. The point im trying to make is that you dont have to have NASA style technology to have a capable 4wd. Earlier in the posts i listed 11 points as to why the defender is a better off road vehicle. Take those eleven points and make an argument either for and against them.
The topic is offorad capability and i believe that a defender offers the simplest yet most capable 4wd ability in standard form with the potential for even greater capabilty with onyl a few mods compared to the disco limited space for improvement due to its fancy nature.

And as for the engine in the d4 offereing power like a rocketship similar to "star ship Enterprise" ,this beleive it or not is not a positive in many off road situations. The only situation i can think of is long sandy hills for example. 4wding is not about power but about keeping things as slow as possible and as fast as necessary. What you want is low down torque which spreads over the power curve. Our truck and dogs could be powered by 700hp scanias but no one uses them because contrary to popular belief on this website whats important is enough power to do the job to maintain reliability for as long as possible. You see too much power and torque equals mechanical failure. The disco is in my opinion the "scania" of 4wds. It reads well on paper: safe, comfortable, powerful, and full of fancy gadgets but id still rather pay for a kenworth with 150hp less power and know that it will haul all day everyday for many years without any dramas. The defender is built on these principles and that's why its often referred to as a truck. Its simplicity makes it ideal for 4wding.

Its cross over axle articulation under full flex offers better body clearance than the disco, its got the better angles of approach/exit etc, better fuel economy, bigger cargo area, bigger tyres that can actually be let down to suit different terrains properly (not 19 inch rims with stupid tyres), the spare tyre is located in a better position, everything can easily be replaced including the simple windscreen, long range tanks are easily installed, water tanks easily installed, its got a heavier pay load, better centre of gravity, the steering although vague on road makes so much sense offraod with the feedback allowing for precise wheel placement..........all i hear from the disco guys is "4wd of the year 9 years in a row"....lol....what a joke.
Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time.

OK, let's talk about facts ....


"regardless of how much of Milo is original or not. The point im trying to make is that you dont have to have NASA style technology to have a capable 4wd." Nobody at any stage in this discussion has said a Deefer is anything other than a very, very capable 4WD .... (contrary to the reverse) not a single D4 owner has stated that ever! FACT!

The topic is offorad capability and i believe that a defender offers the simplest yet most capable 4wd ability in standard form with the potential for even greater capabilty with onyl a few mods compared to the disco limited space for improvement due to its fancy nature. FACT? Not really a fact - Quite a few variables apply here ... and you know that. Even comparing Deefer to Deefer would present pros and cons in different conditions and vehicle set-ups .... like any supposed comapro the outcome would be decided against a range of parameters.....mud, deep ruts, sand, steep hills, rocks, fast gravel tracks, etc, etc. Off-road does not mean trying to climb up a rock wall every time you go out......or driving thousands of miles up undulating rock walls. Variety is the point and the Deefer is stronger in certain areas as is the D4 .... but which ticks more boxes? FACTS to support these variables are the requirements ... not just statements.


How well does a Deefer turn?....abysmally, that's the answer. A D4? incredibly well by any standards. You seen the Vid of the D4 and the Deefer going down a mountain track and the Deefer has to make a three or four point turn to get round a corner the D4 did in one go? Luckily they had room .... too bad if it was a tight track .... up hill or down hill or flat, a D4 will easily outmanoeuvre a Deefer. FACT!


Deefer is simple .... yes but prone to failure .... the loss of the Brand to BMW and Ford and TATA is fact enough there (D1 & 2 didn't help .... but Disco's have moved on ... Deefers haven't). Things definitely go wrong in a D4 but they are generally not mechanical and can be fixed or worked around.....so once again variables. Get two dudes with no vehicle expertise and they are both screwed. Get two guys with the right knowledge and tools and you're going again.....and you probably need to be more mechanically minded to fix a Deefer.


More capable across the board of off-road driving .... as in the variables above .... FACT? Hardly!


And as for the engine in the d4 offereing power like a rocketship similar to "star ship Enterprise" You've never driven or been in a D4 off-road obviously .... this comment is such a giveaway. MOST 4WDs supposedly need a bit of momentum to get up and over stuff .... specially as they tend to lose traction or haven't the grunt in the right area. A Deefer is different to an extent in this regard. A D4 is vastly different, and contrary to what you obviously believe, 500Nm at almost idle is an availability figure only .... but once again, I figure you already know this. This amount of torque mated to the 6 or 8 speed in low range mated to a world leading TC (even the LR haters don't knock the TC) means you have variable and easily controlled torque from zero speed all the way through and it will maintain a very, very low speed if needs be. In fact, that's how they are recommended to be driven .... slow and careful .... let the stuff do it's thing.



Its simplicity makes it ideal for 4wding FACT? Simplicity in what way? To fix the multitude of mechanical failures? (refer to earlier comments). It's not simpler to drive or operate.....not by a long shot. A D4 will easily get a less experienced driver further and easier .... FACT ... detracts for some people I'm sure, that a D4 is so easy to drive but it is what it is.....but that isn't part of the comparo.


Its cross over axle articulation under full flex offers better body clearance than the disco. FACT? Yes/Maybe? (considering a D4 replicates a live axle in low-range) ....but ..... By how much? How often are you going to be in these circumstances? The pumpkins hang lower in most circumstances then the D4 diffs or underbelly (Ruts, tracks, sand, mud) and the heavily rutted tracks alone would chew up a much larger percentage of most peoples off-road driving I'd wager. So there are four easily illustrated areas where the D4 will have better clearance.....not to mention how the multimode TC at the flick of a switch eats them up. As I mentioned before .... compared across a range of areas .... not climbing a vertical, uneven wall at every turn. If you wanted to do that, I suggest a standard Deefer isn't the right car either.




its got the better angles of approach/exit etc FACT? Yes it does .... it is a fact. However, refer to the above comment.


better fuel economy, FACT? No, that's a claim. You could be right but where are the numbers (the facts) across a range of off-road environments.I'd like to see the on-road ones including towing, but that's not part of the comparo either.


bigger cargo area FACT? Yes but by how much .... a lot? However a D4's is much more flexible with 5 real seats in the back that can be configure in multiple configurations. Tailgate and hatch are also seen as a very big plus by lots of folk. However, this has what to do with off-road capability? .... nothing .... other than having more safer and more comfortable passengers on-board and more versatility .... so maybe that does count.


bigger tyres that can actually be let down to suit different terrains properly (not 19 inch rims with stupid tyres), the spare tyre is located in a better position FACT? Yes, in standard trim but has been done to death mate, the reasons behind that marketing decision verses the ability to fix. If the comapro was on-road I'm sure you would want to put 22" on the deefer ..... not that it would make any difference .... where as a slight downsize on a D4 makes a world of difference off-road.


the spare tyre is located in a better position, FACT? Yup. But easy fix on a D4 ....wheel carrier, store one on the roof rack .... and once again ... does this make it better off-road?


everything can easily be replaced including the simple windscreen, long range tanks are easily installed, water tanks easily installed FACT? Are ALL of those things actually true compared to a D4 .... based on what? ..... and once again relevance to the OP's point is what? You might claim with a lot of these that they are all important factors in peoples consideration but so are the plethora of things a D4 can easily do better than a Deefer .... but that isn't the point of this comparo.


, its got a heavier pay load, FACT? Yup. But what are the trade offs? Safety, comfort .... blah, blah. And this heavier weight will help a Deefer off-road how? I recon the other way round.


better centre of gravity, FACT? Has it? If true, there is a thing about this that is an advantage off-road but a D4 controls its roll in ways a Deefer can't. So even if true, maybe not so relevant.


the steering although vague on road makes so much sense offraod with the feedback allowing for precise wheel placement FACT? I don't know. Have you read anywhere about criticism of a D4's steering off or on-road? Nope .... me neither.


"4wd of the year 9 years in a row"....lol....what a joke. As I said before, if you read those articles, the authors were often nit picking seriously stupid stuff to take marks off the D4 .... and many were based on the fact that they had no friggin clue how to operate it or in fact even knew about the stats of the car......yet the car still won. You know damn well that these competitions are based on a wide variety of issues, not just climbing a wall.


Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time You have some facts, you have some statements. A lot of what you say is irrelevant to this comparo. Your point about being relevant to your touring needs are probably accurate but also very subjective. If you are talking about touring around this great country and dealing with the variety of issues and conditions that will be presented there are just so many things that the D4 will do as well and many, many more that the D4 will do much, much better. FACT? YUP, you bet.


The D4 and beyond will get better, the Deefer will not. FACT? YUP.


Lasted the test of time. FACT? Nope ....already covered, they lost relevance in the 'real' world. I don't actually agree with that .... they are a great truck but that's why they are going to be discontinued.




How did I do?

Regarding the often mentioned approach and departure angles, yes in standard trim a Defender is way better.
However it would be interesting to compare the two side by side with a D3/4 fitted with a bull bar on 32" tyres and at full off road height and I bet the differences are not that great.

Where the 110 would be better is in ramp over angle as it has a shorter wheelbase.

If I remember right there was a thread about this on the forum several years ago, which I now can't find, and it had the D3/4's new numbers in it that someone had measured after fitting a bar and fitting larger tyres and as I said the Defenders advantage was not that great.

One thing I do know for sure is with a bull bar fitted and at full off road height plus 31.6" tyres on my D3 I have only on rear Occassion touched the bull bar climbing over something and I have never touched the rear std bar. I have flattened the exhaust by about 50% though doing the lower section of Mt Walker in the rock garden. When I had it replaced I had them change a couple of bends in it a bit and the exhaust is now about a inch higher.

The part of the Mt Walker track where I damaged my exhaust about a year earlier I was there in the D3 with some Defender owners and a new 110 that had from memory standard tyres but had a ARB bar and winch fitted had to get winched over the same section of rocks where I dented my exhaust. So guys I wouldn't get to excited about the differences in ground clearance.

Originally Posted by gghaggis

The T5 Disco 3 / 4 and RRS have the strongest chassis LR have ever built. The strongest CV joints. And the strongest axles. People often confuse "ruggedness" with "reliability", and "reliability" with "enough knowledge to repair".

From new, I took my D3 through tracks far worse than any shown here (LandAndy can attest to that). Pinstriping was never a hindrance. Neither the occasional dent. As I used to say - if I wasn't going to use it, I'd buy a Jaguar. Same went for the L320 Sport - which won the W4 Challenge 2014 and was runner-up 2015 (to a Range Rover) ahead of a plethora of modified Deefers. Same goes for our D4, and now our L494 Sport.

If you're willing to use it the way it was meant, a D4 will run rings around a Defender off-road. "Are you willing" is really the issue. And if you're of the opinion a Defender is better in sand, then you're either not preparing correctly, or your approach to off-road driving needs to be modified (this would be a great time to plug my 2-day sand course for Terrain Response vehicles, but I'll show restraint and put it in a more appropriate thread).

A 110 Defender is cheaper, easier for the traditional mechanic to repair, and easier to load up and clean out. But it's not a better off-roader.

Cheers

Gordon

And for the OP…

And the people that missed the post


Found the answer....so thats it

Originally Posted by scarry

And for the OP?

And the people that missed the post


Found the answer....so thats it

and..... dont forget that although not in the OP's brief, most of us have to travel to where we are able to off-road. For me I have a 2 day drive to the High Country, did it in my Puma, my back was barely up to off-roading once we got there. Sure do wish I'd had my RRS then, and would not of thought twice about taking it on the same tracks, and we did all the most serious tracks there. Even after fitting after market suspension and Sheelmann seats to the Deefer the drive to 4WD locations in the RRS is better, better ride, safer, more power and better economy. But this is based on me being in the older category and suffering wear and tear from 20yrs of Toyotas and 12yrs of Deefers. Also there is just the 2 of us now so room is not an issue for us plus we now tow a block of flats...... Basically horses for courses.

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Defenders own it in the extreme. Disco has some neat tricks.

Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.

Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.

I say all this with the best of defender in mind. But perhaps the puma is not quite as tough as previous models when it comes to submerging / fuel quality tolerance, driveline (I hear). Perhaps it wouldn't do so well on a third world trophy run either?!

I see why terryo limited the comp to the puma 110. It's a closer call. puma shares some of the same modern engine limitations as the disco in reduced fuel and water tollerance. But it still has the utilitarian advantage that is very important for most real offroad use and can still make use of the thousand and one offroad upgrades available to the classic defender platform that could see it far out perform a d4 of any modification.

I can't see how the d3/4 can win except perhaps, out of the factory without mods to the defender but with aftermarket wheels and better tyres on the disco. The exact conditions terryo placed on this discussion! You may have crafted a very small win there Terry.

Originally Posted by manic

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Defenders own it in the extreme. Disco has some neat tricks.

Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.

Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.

I say all this with the best of defender in mind. But perhaps the puma is not quite as tough as previous models when it comes to submerging / fuel quality tolerance, driveline (I hear). Perhaps it wouldn't do so well on a third world trophy run either?!

I see why terryo limited the comp to the puma 110. It's a closer call. puma shares some of the same modern engine limitations as the disco in reduced fuel and water tollerance. But it still has the utilitarian advantage that is very important for most real offroad use and can still make use of the thousand and one offroad upgrades available to the classic defender platform that could see it far out perform a d4 of any modification.

I can't see how the d3/4 can win except perhaps, out of the factory without mods to the defender but with aftermarket wheels and better tyres on the disco. The exact conditions terryo placed on this discussion! You may have crafted a very small win there Terry.

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at I'm not sure how practical that example is even for most Deefer owners. It's also certainly not something most owners have to do that regularly. And besides, you get arrested in this country for doing that. Oh, btw .... I didn't think you had to open the doors in a Deefer for it to flood .... LOL


see it far out perform a d4 of any modification We're back to just climbing undulating vertical walls again .... let's just hope there are no tight corners on the way there ....

It was limited to Pumas because it was specifically a discussion about new vehicles.

I know I'm a bit unusual here having driven brand new versions of both. In my opinion if looked at purely in off-road terms, in showroom floor spec, the Defender has an edge on the Disco. This is down to 2 points.

The first and most important issue is the 19" rims. The Disco will go a lot of places despite these, but there is no doubt they are a hindrance due to their susceptibility to damage. This is easily fixed, but equally so are the problems the Defender has (at least in terms of off-road capability. There's nothing you can do legally to address the poor occupant safety in the Defender.)

The second is clearance. Clearance on the Disco is pretty good by any standards but the sills are closer to the ground than the Defenders. This isn't a huge point but it is an advantage to the Defender.

Other than that they are pretty evenly matched. There are places a Disco, even on 19"s, will walk through that a Defender will struggle and of course vice versa. I think there are enough examples of both here already.

Pretty much everything else comes down to personal preferences and the specific use one has in mind for their vehicle. Remember off-road use has a very broad definition.

Cheers,
Jon

Originally Posted by manic

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.

Yes, they do - and guess which vehicle received the most handicapping? Guess who still won?

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Did exactly that last September on the Staples Track in Harvey, stuck in a 3' bog. The mud came off the carpets surprisingly well, and although the audio amp under the seat got saturated, it worked fine after a bit of a clean. (Note - no I didn't get out without a winch. The mud at the bottom was too thick to allow the car to sink further!)

Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.

Thank-you - this was the OP's original premise. Stock vehicles. Even with experienced drivers.


[quote ]

Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.

[/quote]

And your knowledge of this comes from....? I'll tell you a little story. Edd Colby is the British Defender off-road champion. What he doesn't know about driving a Deefer isn't worth knowing. He has a very nice D90, as well as a Wildcat or two - none of them exactly "stock"! He's also the LRE (East UK) Chief driving instructor. Last August he and I were out for 2 days in a D4. The second day things started to get hairy, and even with the D4's turning circle, we had to capstan winch around trees and bogs. Very slow going. At one point we had the D4 at emergency height, balanced at 45deg on two wheels at the top of a steep descent into a bog. Edd had spotted me up the incline and jumped in the car for the descent. He said "I don't like the look of this - do you want to go on?". I replied "Sure - besides, you've done this before right?". His answer? "Well yes, but only in a D90. I've never taken a D4 through here!!".

We got through just fine. Edd was on the CB telling all his instructors where we'd just taken the D4. The point is that even the most experienced of drivers, unless they've actually pushed a D4 through that sort of terrain, would swear blind you couldn't take a D4 through it. They'll point to all these facts (and figures - Edd was big on figures) as to why the Deefer is such a good off-roader (and most of them are true - not 1ando's ideas on torque and fuel though!). But they make the mistake of thinking these facts make it better than a D4 (or D3), because most of them have no idea of how the D4 technology makes many of these facts redundant.

But the D4 drivers on here know this.

Cheers,

Gordon