Towing vs. Being over gvm

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Originally Posted by johntins

But not in Victoria, as the Vicroads website, and the compliance PDF, clearly show.

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The PDF mentions nothing about temporary or permanent removal...

However, as you stated the web site has good info confirming VicRoads requirements. And under a 9 seater it's no problem as long as you meet a few requirements.

Boot space must remain closed (sedan)
Sharp edges etc must be covered or removed.
All bolt holes that leave an opening must be sealed.

Removing, adding & replacing seats : VicRoads

This has turned into a bit of a legal debate away from the original post. We have Federal and State laws. They introduced ADR's to bring about some conformity across the country. They introduced the Australian Road Rules also to bring in some conformity as well but states still can make their own laws/rules and when in that state those rules comply. Some states think they have it more right than others.

On lots of things that are pertinent to a particular state they will have a clause saying check that you are not breaking the laws in other states but it is ok here.

Driving Lights are one example. The hook turn in Vic is another. Radar detectors another. I am sure there are many more as you point out.

The important thing is that you have to comply with the local rules not the rules of where you come from. In these cases I plead ignorance and apologise. I then make sure I don't get caught doing the wrong thing again.

All the best

Laurie

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Originally Posted by BobD

As I said, according to these definitions you have removed the seat belts by removing the seats. Why are the side belts different from the buckles or the middle seat? It just depends on the whim of the inspector as to whether he agrees with your interpretation or not from what I am reading here.

I would like to see proof that someone has actually been in trouble for removing a seat and a seatbelt. I and many others have certainly removed the stupid rear seat and seatbelts from a Patrol for example without recompliance. In WA there is no roadworthy checking after a vehicle is licensed so it would be interesting to see how such a rule would be policed. Currently I would say it is never policed, at least in WA.

Here is the actual rule for Australia:


4 REMOVAL OF SEAT(S) AND SEATBELT(S) TO REDUCE SEATING CAPACITY
Seats and seatbelts may be permanently removed to reduce seating capacity of the vehicle.
The vehicle must be certified to represent the new seating capacity. All holes in the bodywork
must be blanked off.
Any removal of seats and/or seatbelts to achieve a reduction in seating capacity must not
interfere with the vehicle’s Supplementary Restraint System (SRS). For example removing a
front seat and seatbelts with pre-tensioners may disarm the entire vehicle SRS and therefore
would not be able to be certified.
If the reduction in seating capacity results in a change of vehicle category the signatory must
show that the vehicle complies with all additional ADRs that may now apply to that vehicle.

The tricky thing would be whether removal of the seats affects the performance of the side airbags in a D3 or D4.

As Tombie said, the rule for certification seems to apply only to permanently removed seats and seat belts. There is no indication that removing seatbelts is any different to removing seats and there is no link that makes temporary removal of seatbelts suddenly mean that the removal of seats is permanent.

Good luck to us all in identifying whether seat removal is temporary or permanent for the purpose of whether certification is required or not.

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All of that just makes me want to cry out for the abolition of States. The Victorian requirement is not the same as that. For heaven's sake, why can't we have one body to administrate road laws? For years and years we had different left turn laws between Vic and NSW. We have different absolute speed limits ( I vote for the NT on this one ). NSW demands a RWC every year, Vic doesn't require one at all if you keep the vehicle registered and in one name ( or, unless it's a truck, or a commercial passenger vehicle ). It's crazy.

I'll be driving my D2, originally a 7 seater, now a 5, through a couple of different state sometime in the not so distant future. I'll see how I get on.

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Originally Posted by Tombie

The PDF mentions nothing about temporary or permanent removal...

However, as you stated the web site has good info confirming VicRoads requirements. And under a 9 seater it's no problem as long as you meet a few requirements.

Boot space must remain closed (sedan)
Sharp edges etc must be covered or removed.
All bolt holes that leave an opening must be sealed.

Removing, adding & replacing seats : VicRoads

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No, it doesn't. That PDF is, according to the website, the only definition of compliance there is. I'd love to hear what a VASS engineer has to say on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Strop

This has turned into a bit of a legal debate away from the original post. We have Federal and State laws. They introduced ADR's to bring about some conformity across the country. They introduced the Australian Road Rules also to bring in some conformity as well but states still can make their own laws/rules and when in that state those rules comply. Some states think they have it more right than others.

On lots of things that are pertinent to a particular state they will have a clause saying check that you are not breaking the laws in other states but it is ok here.

Driving Lights are one example. The hook turn in Vic is another. Radar detectors another. I am sure there are many more as you point out.

The important thing is that you have to comply with the local rules not the rules of where you come from. In these cases I plead ignorance and apologise. I then make sure I don't get caught doing the wrong thing again.

All the best

Laurie

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Well, the OP was talking about GVM, and seat removal came up as a way of lightening the car, so it's not really OT.

Driving lights are accessories, as are light bars. Best to comply there, as they are not part of the original car, and ADRs probably don't cover them completely. Radar detectors are also accessories, and are illegal in all the eastern states. There was a test case in , I think, Vic, about the legality of the legislations banning them, as such a device should come under the Federal laws as a radio receiver, but the Feds wimped it, so you'll get done if you have one. Melbourne's 'hook turns' are a local anomaly, and are thus irrelevant, although they might become important in Sydney soon....

My experience with the NSW Highway Patrol, and, as an interstate truck driver it is vast, suggests pleading ignorance is a futile exercise. They don't care. They've heard it all. Qld, in my experience, still listen. It won't last.

JT

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Originally Posted by johntins

All of that just makes me want to cry out for the abolition of States. ......

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You can do all the crying out you want to, but it is not going to happen - that is the political reality.

And the reason is simple - nearly everyone is in favour of having the same rules in every state - but, of course, all the other states must adopt our rules since we know they are the correct ones, and we cannot lower safety standards by adopting the lower standards of other states!

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

You can do all the crying out you want to, but it is not going to happen - that is the political reality.

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time for a revolution then.

seriously, we have too many tiers of government. need to merge states and councils.

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Originally Posted by Eevo

time for a revolution then.

seriously, we have too many tiers of government. need to merge states and councils.

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Same answer - not going to happen. State governments have fallen in several states for messing with council boundaries or merging councils - can you imagine what would happen if it was proposed to merge councils into states. But legally it is a lot easier; all it would take is legislation in the state parliament, but it is not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by johntins

Did anyone challenge the infringements? I would. The coppers don't actually know much about the law, as I have proved on a few occasions at a Magistrate's Court. They simply don't expect people to fight. As to the defects, did the interstate owners present their cars to Vicroads to have the defect cleared? I'll bet not. Getting booked does NOT constitute a legal precedent. ALL tickets given at side of road are ALLEGED offences. Even RBTs.




Vehicle regs are not Federal, ADRs are. Federal laws aren't the States to enforce. How else do you explain that seat removal is totally legal in Vic, but not in NSW? Why are certain tyre sizes legal in Vic and NSW but not Qld?

If I get booked for not having 7 seats in my D2, or 5 in my D1 I'll go to court. It's worth it. The Magistrates don't know the law either.

Still, it's each person's risk, I guess.

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National not federal, my mistake, and defects are handled on a state by state basis, as I said there's been a couple of NSW cars pinched for being illegal in VIC, as for presenting their cars I have no idea, but I do know interstate trucks have to adhere to states laws nowadays, could be the same for any vehicle now, as for fighting it, I dunno if it would be worth it, most laws cover accessories are pretty much the same.

Seat removal is legal here, just not permanently as far as I'm aware.

I could look it up, but I couldn't be bothered, someone else may want to though.

I guess fighting it will depend on the penalty. I fought the Truck task force over what could have amounted to 12 Grand. And won. But a defect notice is a little different I guess. But I believe in principles, and the "blitz " operations have none. You'll see the police using laminated cheat sheets as they don't know the laws any more than we do.
I think I probably would fight a defect notice myself as there's more cost involved than just the amount on the TIN. But I have a bit of history in this area. Trucks are picked on all the time and it gets my back up.