Thread: Td6 5L40E Options

Gav,
In Rangie the GM5L40-E communicates with the CAN for the following.
• It compares engine speed (from engine ECU) with output shaft speed and input shaft speed every few milli-seconds, to determine torque converter and internal clutch slippage.
• Instrument pack displays transmission status (only has lights for 5 gears) & the Malfunction Indicator Lamp as well as messages displayed on the MCD.
• Throttle position and vehicle speed are combined with shift maps to determine shift and lock up points.
• Throttle position sensor for kick-down
• Most importantly - Engine Torque Reduction Message (sent to engine ECU) to enable smoother changes while reducing wear on internal clutches. When the engine ECU receives this request it implements an “Active Surge Damping” event which reduces engine torque momentarily while the trans changes gear or implements a partial or full lock up.

If the trans ECU is not connected to the CAN, the box will still operate in the Default mode but the torque converter will not lock up and these messages to the engine won’t get through giving a noticeable jerk to the gear change.

The Engine receives the following from the Trans ECU
• Torque reduction request
• Selector lever position
• Current gear
• Gear change in progress
• Additional cooling request.

I’m not sure what it will do if these messages don’t come through – I suspect operate as normal, as these are all request type messages for the trans to do its job.

What we need to find out is what the 6L80 needs as far as inputs.

Originally Posted by 33chinacars

Top gear ratio with 5L40 is 3.075 :1 with the 6L80 it would be 2.747 :1 So with the extra power we could put into the TD6 I dont think it would too much of a problem. The major problem is getting everthing to talk to everything else. ie motor to gearbox etc. As i would like to retain normal mode - sport mode - manual mode With sport mode locking out 5th & 6th gears.

Gary

Garry, it's not so much a case of retaining the current modes, a new transmission will have a new ECU which will have various shift map modes programmed and available as developed by the manufacturer, as long as we can switch them on. Same goes for TC lock-up points.

I've sent a few e-mails to a few US " Auto Controller Suppliers " in the US, so will wait for their reply. If there was only some way we could check the fitted controller with a 6L80E to see if we could adapt it ?

The other potential problem with this, is the BMW canbus wiring ; how unique was this system for the Range Rover Td6 with the 5L40E. The BMW X5's initially had their version of the 5L40E, but the latter BMW X5's had the 6 speed ZF, (same basic version as the D3's, V8 Rangies and Sport BUT again has it got a different canbus ?)
Do the BMW X5's share the same canbus with the L322 ? might be worth a look also.
The ZF boxs are having some troubles also if you read the D3 & X5 forums, again around oil quality and the " filled for life " concept. If I remember rightly the X5 diesel ZF uses a different bellhousing as the starter motor is on the opposite side, compared to the V8.

Just got home and found this;

I have received the 2 following replies from the following US companies. I have to say the customer service from these 2 companies was outstanding in their reply times; a few firms here in Oz could learn a lot from them !!!

PCS - Powertrain Control Solutions - Home

Joey Sobrito Joey@PowertrainControlSolutions.com

Laurie,
The 6L80E transmission has the controller built in to the valve body of the transmission. I don’t know of anyone who has come out with a controller for that transmission but it would likely just interface with the factory controller since it is part of the valve body. We are currently working on such a controller but there is no time line on when it will be released.

And

https://www.hgmelectronics.com/display/hgm/Home

Michael Hoy mhoy@hgmelectronics.com

Laurie
At this time there is no way to fit and make work a 6L80.
There is no aftermarket controller available from anyone.
Mike

I’m not really up to speed with electronics, maybe Harlie could chime in ! “interface with the factory controller” is that plausible; and does mean we could use the original controller ?

Originally Posted by Laurie

“interface with the factory controller” is that plausible; and does mean we could use the original controller ?

No, for starters our factory ECU (what he is calling Factory Controller) only knows about 5 gears, not to mention the valving will be completely different - ie it need to know exactly what it is 'controlling' and it wouldn't.

The Transmission has a “Controller” that receives instructions from an ECU – The ECU is not going to built in, they don’t like heat, or oil. From reading your post it looks to me that there's no programmable ECUs to suit (sounds like a confusion in US vs EU based terminology).

The Trans ECU will need the following communication at a Minimum, having an electronic controlled Transmission without the interface to the car is not going to be successful.
·Receive Vehicle Speed
·Receive Engine Speed
·Receive Throttle Position
·Most will require – Receive Engine torque
·Send torque reduction request

Sorry, I don’t mean to start with a negative, just being realistic.

CAN Bus is a network protocol standard (licensed by Bosch), so theoretically it is possible for foreign ECUs to operate with in our Rangies. However, the CAN standard has been updated several times, for both major restraints – 1. How packets are assembled; & 2. How the binary ‘bits’ are represented (voltage & resistance). Looking into this I’m ignoring anything pre 2000 – bits from the ’86 BMW 850 (first CAN car) won’t work on a new car.

The first issue is not really a problem as newer ECU handle both messages with a Base Frame or Extended Frame message format, If the TD6 is base frame only that could be a problem introducing a Base + Extended trans ECU. If the TD6 is Base + Extended, then it will be OK, even if the new ECU is Base only.

The 2nd issue is the big one, there are several different ISO standards which specify how a bit represented, it’s possible to get to the bottom of it, but there’s some time and reading to, essentially they have to adhere to the same standard, and devices manufactured at the same time doesn’t mean that are the same ISO….

Now imagine that these 2 issues are satisfied – we have compatible message format, and how that message is ‘put on the wires’. We still have the issue of device and message identification within the packets. Something that I want to look into is – are these in the ISO standard, if they are then we are cool – real cool! This would mean that the Trans on all CAN Bus networks has the same network ID and the same messages (like throttle position for eg) in all cars will have the same identifier (+ value). At first thought – I bet they are not.

Taking the communication issues into consideration, I like talk of the 6 speed ZF the X5 inherited. As you mention it’s the same box as D3/4, RRV TDV8 & VW Toureg (my mate has a V10TDi with over 900nm through it). All gear boxes that don’t get serviced eventually give up, other than that, from what I read they are pretty solid.

The TD6 L322 CAN Bus (& I Bus & K Bus) is compatible with the X5 of the same era, but it’s not compatible with the (Ford Based) D3/later L322 – This point is what makes me believe that the critical issues are not in the ISO standard. Remember, it’s the ECU that has to be compatible, and each vehicle has it’s own ECU even though the box is the same.

So from an electronics point, IMO, the best track would be a ZF (6HP26?) with the BMW ECU, hoping Siemens haven’t changed the Message format. I’ll look into that.

Then there's the driver interface.

This is me purely thinking about coms;

Apparently….

BMW X5 E53 series2
Release date: Jan / 2004
End date: Mar / 2007
Quote” …. 3.0d, the star of the revised X5. Now it offers 150kW and 480Nm of power and torque, as well as a six-speed automatic gearbox courtesy of ZF.”

BMW dropped the GM box end 2003.

If that is the ZF 6HP26 (pretty sure it is) then the ECU from the 2004 X5 should control a box from early D3 (maybe later as well – more to read) ect. With the limited reading I’ve done it looks like E53 were all on a compatible CAN, so this might work in our rangie…. Might

What’s the best version of the ZF 6HP26 to physically fit in there.

Big thing now troubling me – why haven’t we heard of someone doing this, must be wrong somewhere.

Which after reading all of this unfortunately brings us back to a beefed up version of our original 5L40E GM box . Hoping that the more knowledgeable members on here can come up with some other ideas.

No not finish yet Just need to engage more smarter people

Gary

More reading has confirmed that newer generation ECUs will not integrate with the early L322, BMW system changed significantly for 2004. As discussed on other boards it is possible to use the 5 speed ZF but not really worth it.

Add another point to think about. If a different transmission is fitted, the Dealer won't be able to read/clear faults. Neither would those of us with diog kits...

(From electronics view)

Out on a limb –it is not remotely feasible to fit another Auto Transmission, I have to agree with Gary, rebuild the GM box with Sonax bits.

However, with a bit of work it would be possible to get a manual box going, the auto trans ECU would need to stay and be fed some dummy input values (create a little black box, stub if you like.)