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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    We are all aware of the spin.
    Perhaps credit it with being a little more than spin given the source. I know there's not a lot of new info there, it's about giving some credence to what has been said so far.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    ...The problem is that 100% of all current Land Rover models are already aimed at the 'Lifestyle Market'.
    Well, no not really. There is a big hole in their market coverage, they have luxury (Range Rover) and family/leisure (Discovery) covered, life style/adventure is missing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    ...So the real question is, what will set the Defender apart? What will make it deserving of the name 'Defender'?
    Ultimately, I believe it can only be it's capability and durability. When it comes to the Defender that is the only thing that matters. We'll soon see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    The 130 sounds interesting. But looking at the 90 and 110 spyshots we've seen they look quite diminutive,
    I wouldn't get too hung up on those spy shots... filled in wheel arches, increased belt line padded panels, window apertures changed. It's disguised. It's every bit the size of other full size models. Incidentally, I would consider the "G" wagen "diminutive" too in its standard guise but no one questions its capability.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    so the the 130 might be the commercial vehicle? The problem is - to compete in the over supplied dual cab market, the price will need to be more like $35-60K.
    If the "G" (which seems to be lauded by all) is starting well north of 100K in commercial form then 60K to 110K is going to work fine. IF a commercial version is released I would hazard a guess it may be cheaper without the bells and whistles added in. Honestly Land Rover will not be interested in competing in that market on price. If it's going to happen they'll make a product that people want and are willing to pay for, that's what they've been doing for a while now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    More capable than a MB G Wagen? Intriguing...but I'm not convinced given the spy shots, we'll see.
    Why? What do the spy shots tell you about it's capability? Nothing really to be said until a head to head comparison can be done. All the statement does (and this has been said by Land Rover too) is give us some hope that the brand is focused on making sure the new defender lives up to its name.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    At least if there is a 110 wagon version for $60K it will compete on price. But you can bet the base model will be a small capacity 4 or EV! and that the useable work vehicle version will be $80K+
    Do you think that a small capacity 4 is unworkable? Interesting as that is what your defender has in it and the small capacity 4's that LR are making now have serious numbers. As for EV, well, that's where it's at. We've all seen the advancement in this space and there is no way that any serious manufacturer can ignore it.


    As with every thread on this topic, it's all speculation, but one thing I am certain of is that anyone who wants the replacement to be like the old one can forget it.


    From earlier this year...lets hope he is true to his word:
    Gerry McGovern Gets Frank About Land Rover Design | Alloy+Grit


    Quote Originally Posted by Alloy and Grit
    Can a vehicle’s perfection lie in its imperfection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry McGovern
    That’s bloody good! Are you an intellectual professor? Ha! [Laughing]

    I collect a lot of things related to design. One of the periods I’m particularly fascinated by is Mid-Century Modern, and I collect Italian glass from Murano. I go for this particular technique called ‘submerso’ which is clear glass where color is floated into the glass. It’s just pure art, beautifully done. Interestingly, a lot of that glass, because it’s hand blown, has lots of imperfections in the surface, lots of undulations. If you place a vintage piece next to a modern-day piece that would be made in Murano now, which today will be molded – which can replicate exactly what that [effect] is while taking all the imperfections out – it absolutely loses something. And it looks manufactured.

    The irony is, we manufacture vehicles. The difference is that when Defenders were created, the manufacturing techniques were not as good as they are now. They would have loved for them to be very precise but they couldn’t make them like that.

    So I think we have to be careful of that with Defender. While I respect our traditionalists, the people who love Defender, we have to be careful we’re not preoccupied with designing a vehicle just for them. Because to be honest, they love the Defender they’ve got and they’ll probably die with it. They probably won’t buy the new one. There will be other people that will.

    The new vehicle has to be relevant to a world that has changed massively from when those [Series/Defender] cars were first created. It needs to be of its time technologically. It needs to have the technology features a fully up-to-date vehicle should have. It’s also going to be made in a state of the art assembly plant. So to “create” those imperfections would not be the right thing to do.

    I think what the new [Defender] has to do is maybe replicate the charm and the essence of the original, and that’s more around it capabilities, its durability, its ruggedness. And we have to be careful we’re not preoccupied with trying to do a retrospective vehicle or trying to do a modern-day facsimile of what’s gone before. So we shouldn’t be doing the Mini thing, or some of the other [retro] things we’ve seen.

    I think people will be quite surprised when they see it. I think a lot of people, even the traditionalists, will smile. But it has to be modern, it has to be of its time, and it has to be able to do what it says it can do on its tin. I haven’t ****ed up yet, and I’m certainly not going to do it with Defender.
    Cheers,

    Sean

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” - Albert Einstein

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBD4 View Post
    Perhaps credit it with being a little more than spin given the source. I know there's not a lot of new info there, it's about giving some credence to what has been said so far.
    If your source is a Land Rover insider, that's great, but from what you've said, they haven't said anything new.


    Well, no not really. There is a big hole in their market coverage, they have luxury (Range Rover) and family/leisure (Discovery) covered, life style/adventure is missing. I totally disagree. Lifestyle is all they currently do. Family/Leisure/Luxury/Adventure/Lifestyle - it's all the image of Land Rover - born of vehicles which they no longer build. The hole in the market for Land Rover is a real work vehicle - which some people will choose to use as an 'adventure' vehicle.

    Ultimately, I believe it can only be it's capability and durability. When it comes to the Defender that is the only thing that matters. We'll soon see
    Capability includes being a Heavy Duty work vehicle, capable of all that previous Defenders were capable of, but using contemporary build methods.

    I wouldn't get too hung up on those spy shots... filled in wheel arches, increased belt line padded panels, window apertures changed. It's disguised. It's every bit the size of other full size models. Incidentally, I would consider the "G" wagen "diminutive" too in its standard guise but no one questions its capability If it's got so much padding it's actually smaller than it looks.

    If the "G" (which seems to be lauded by all) is starting well north of 100K in commercial form then 60K to 110K is going to work fine. IF a commercial version is released I would hazard a guess it may be cheaper without the bells and whistles added in. Honestly Land Rover will not be interested in competing in that market on price. If it's going to happen they'll make a product that people want and are willing to pay for, that's what they've been doing for a while now. No their current vehicles are all only what wealthy people who live the city want and are willing to pay for. Most people can't afford a current model Land Rover and won't buy an $80-100K vehicle.

    Why? What do the spy shots tell you about it's capability? Nothing really to be said until a head to head comparison can be done. All the statement does (and this has been said by Land Rover too) is give us some hope that the brand is focused on making sure the new defender lives up to its name. ?

    Do you think that a small capacity 4 is unworkable? Interesting as that is what your defender has in it and the small capacity 4's that LR are making now have serious numbers. As for EV, well, that's where it's at. We've all seen the advancement in this space and there is no way that any serious manufacturer can ignore it. ​A small 4 cylinder diesel is great for a vehicle which sold for $50K and was an economical heavy duty vehicle designed for all walks of life. Yes IF the $60K version has a small 4 and heavy duty it might be ok. But if all the necessary extras that make it capable add up to $80K+ (like D5) people will also expect a larger engine or an EV with significant range.

    As with every thread on this topic, it's all speculation, but one thing I am certain of is that anyone who wants the replacement to be like the old one can forget it
    The one thing 'you're certain of' is a non issue. ...I don't think anyone wants the replacement to be like the old one. We all already have an old one. Most want a new Defender built for purpose - as a work vehicle, which doesn't mean the 'Lifestyle' market (which includes the previous D4 market).
    No offence to D4 owners, but that has always been the difference between Discoveries and Defenders.


    From earlier this year...lets hope he is true to his word:
    Gerry McGovern Gets Frank About Land Rover Design | Alloy+Grit

    I don't think Gerry McGovern knows anything about designing work vehicles. Which is why all current Land Rovers are essentially Range Rovers of different sizes. His spin is transparent IMO

    Yep, all speculation, although you seem to think your source knows more than that? ... if so tell us more...?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    ... but from what you've said, they haven't said anything new.
    Yeah, I already said that, my point was "it's about giving some credence to what has been said so far".


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    I totally disagree. Lifestyle is all they currently do. Family/Leisure/Luxury/Adventure/Lifestyle - it's all the image of Land Rover - born of vehicles which they no longer build. The hole in the market for Land Rover is a real work vehicle - which some people will choose to use as an 'adventure' vehicle.
    I understand where you're coming from but they haven't been building for that market for years. Building for that market virtually sent them broke. It's been moving to luxury ever since the first rangie was built.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Capability includes being a Heavy Duty work vehicle, capable of all that previous Defenders were capable of, but using contemporary build methods.
    Yes, if you were to make a heavy duty work vehicle. Like it or not I don't think they are interested in that market.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    If it's got so much padding it's actually smaller than it looks.
    Really? OK if you say so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    No their current vehicles are all only what wealthy people who live the city want and are willing to pay for. Most people can't afford a current model Land Rover and won't buy an $80-100K vehicle.
    I agree, wealthy people in the city AND the country will buy these vehicles off the showroom floor, some will even take them off road, but the secondhand market for them is well and truly alive and well with people who use them for more than just a symbol of affluence. This forum is proof of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    ?
    Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to the comparison to the "G" giving some hope that the new defender will be capable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    A small 4 cylinder diesel is great for a vehicle which sold for $50K and was an economical heavy duty vehicle designed for all walks of life. Yes IF the $60K version has a small 4 and heavy duty it might be ok. But if all the necessary extras that make it capable add up to $80K+ (like D5) people will also expect a larger engine or an EV with significant range.
    Perhaps, but there are plenty of people buying the SD4 D5 in HSE trim - that's more than 100K. the SD4 is 170Kw and 500nm. Who knows how they'll slice and dice the options. For the D4, the S and HSE had the same capability short of an optional eDiff. The difference now is that LR have wised up and realised that not everyone is going offroad and now have low range capability as an option. I doubt they'll do that on the Defender - I should think that they will all have low range. The pricing will be around trim and equipment. Of course that's speculation on my part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    The one thing 'you're certain of' is a non issue. ...I don't think anyone wants the replacement to be like the old one. We all already have an old one.
    Indeed, but I think you know that's not what I was implying.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Most want a new Defender built for purpose - as a work vehicle, which doesn't mean the 'Lifestyle' market (which includes the previous D4 market).
    No offence to D4 owners, but that has always been the difference between Discoveries and Defenders.
    Yep, understood. It's just not happening so I can't understand the constant harping on about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    I don't think Gerry McGovern knows anything about designing work vehicles. Which is why all current Land Rovers are essentially Range Rovers of different sizes. His spin is transparent IMO
    He lives in a different world to the rest of us no doubt about that. Though, I think we can acknowledge that the bloke knows exactly what he is doing and he delivering what the company wants him to. I didn't like the direction he took with the discovery but that doesn't mean I can't see it for what it is. Every new vehicle will lose some existing customers and gain new ones. It seems they are managing to get a lot of new ones which, after all, is what it is all about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Yep, all speculation, although you seem to think your source knows more than that? ... if so tell us more...?
    Yep, he surely knows more than that. Didn't tell me the specifics though - they were made to hand over all cameras/phones etc. The conversation was mainly around how impressed he was with it, target market, what the traditionalists might think of it etc. I didn't try to pry too much. What I am typing up here is only my opinion. I wouldn't say anything more if I knew in the interests of not compromising the individual in question.

    Finally, I know where you're coming from and agree that it jars somewhat to have Land Rover head up market in the way that is. I personally would love the next Defender to be truly rugged (Even if pricing is up there), extremely off road capable and versatile. It needs that to maintain any integrity with its history. For people who know nothing of LRs history, I don't think it matters but, I do think it matters to LR.

    We shall see....may be you'll be pleasantly surprised.
    Cheers,

    Sean

    “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    ...Most people can't afford a current model Land Rover and won't buy an $80-100K vehicle.
    Oh I don't know about that - around Perth, every second car seems to be a new Prado ($60k - $95k, and usually around the $70k mark), or a 70 series ($75k) or a 200 series ($86k - $126k), or a Patrol ($80k - $100k). This price range isn't a problem, especially considering the extra cash spent on Prados and 70 series getting them up to spec, like lifted suspension, GVM upgrades, widening the rear tracks to match the front (70 series), etc.

    The bigger issue will be convincing people that they will be equally reliable, capable, comfortable etc, and that their Toyota and Nissan mates won't make fun of them down on the beach for buying one...
    2010 TDV6 3.0L Discovery 4 SE remapped to RRS output, Alaska White, GME XRS-330c, IIDTool BT, Dual Battery, Apple CarPlay, OEM Retrofitted: Cornering lights, Door card lights, Power + Heated Seats, Logic 7 audio

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    Quote Originally Posted by veebs View Post
    Oh I don't know about that - around Perth, every second car seems to be a new Prado ($60k - $95k, and usually around the $70k mark), or a 70 series ($75k) or a 200 series ($86k - $126k), or a Patrol ($80k - $100k). This price range isn't a problem, especially considering the extra cash spent on Prados and 70 series getting them up to spec, like lifted suspension, GVM upgrades, widening the rear tracks to match the front (70 series), etc.

    The bigger issue will be convincing people that they will be equally reliable, capable, comfortable etc, and that their Toyota and Nissan mates won't make fun of them down on the beach for buying one...
    Yup their ‘lifestyle’ market is the wealthy inner suburbs of all our cities. Not everyone lives there.

    Agree with the bigger issue... and problem is, focussing all attention on the lifestyle market does nothing for their credibility in terms of reliability or capability.

  6. #26
    DiscoMick Guest
    Cruising around the Northern Beaches of Sydney last week, where there are lots of D4s, plus some D5s, Sports and Rangie Sports, I was thinking that JLR has really targeted the family market. D4s are excellent family wagons with up to 7 seats in a very flexible and practical interior.
    Now if they can just make the new Defender rugged, practical, durable and reasonably priced they could have a winner.
    After all, plenty of people are financing utes for $50-60k, so that's the sweet spot LR needs to hit.

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    “After all, plenty of people are financing utes for $50-60k, so that's the sweet spot LR needs to hit.”

    Wishful I reckon Mick. You can almost get a base model Disco Sport for that. LOL

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    Yup their ‘lifestyle’ market is the wealthy inner suburbs of all our cities. Not everyone lives there.
    Plenty of rural farmers and people living in remote mining towns are rolling around with these types of vehicles too. My point was that the price point is not an unachievable one for the general population.
    2010 TDV6 3.0L Discovery 4 SE remapped to RRS output, Alaska White, GME XRS-330c, IIDTool BT, Dual Battery, Apple CarPlay, OEM Retrofitted: Cornering lights, Door card lights, Power + Heated Seats, Logic 7 audio

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    Quote Originally Posted by veebs View Post
    Plenty of rural farmers and people living in remote mining towns are rolling around with these types of vehicles too. My point was that the price point is not an unachievable one for the general population.
    You mean $50-60K work utes. Sure if it’s a work vehicle. Not so much if it’s a ‘lifestyle’ SUV. Any New model Land Rovers? Not many I reckon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeros View Post
    You mean $50-60K work utes. Sure if it’s a work vehicle. Not so much if it’s a ‘lifestyle’ SUV. Any New model Land Rovers? Not many I reckon.
    I know what I mean. Yes, the vehicles down the mine shaft, and the 'paddock bashers' are old clunkers, however the miner's personal ride, and the station owners town car are often pretty flash.

    They may not buy Land Rovers, but that is not because they are too expensive.
    2010 TDV6 3.0L Discovery 4 SE remapped to RRS output, Alaska White, GME XRS-330c, IIDTool BT, Dual Battery, Apple CarPlay, OEM Retrofitted: Cornering lights, Door card lights, Power + Heated Seats, Logic 7 audio

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