Thread: The New Defender: Diesel vs Petrol

Originally Posted by trout1105

I think that Toyota work on the premise of "If it aint broke then why fix it?"

They also work on the premise of if it is broke in AU, unless they have to as Scary alluded to, they won't fix it. The Yota diesels don't have a good rep in AU from my understanding,dusting past the air filter(limp mode in outback anyone), dpf and the "fix" is apparently one of the worst according to autoexpert tv and berrima diesel(who Toyota tried to sue) and worst environmental offenders in AU according to ABC.

So it is really quite interesting they are dropping the petrols. Right now they need them.

Hilux is now outsold by Ranger and Triton in the 4x4 seg.

Not having a go, just stating relevant facts.

So if it aint broke dont fix it, doesnt really apply to toyota, its more, its broke and not fixed, annoying and our customers can put up with it.

Originally Posted by blackrangie

They also work on the premise of if it is broke in AU, unless they have to as Scary alluded to, they won't fix it. The Yota diesels don't have a good rep in AU from my understanding,dusting past the air filter(limp mode in outback anyone), dpf and the "fix" is apparently one of the worst according to autoexpert tv and berrima diesel(who Toyota tried to sue) and worst environmental offenders in AU according to ABC.

So it is really quite interesting they are dropping the petrols. Right now they need them.

Hilux is now outsold by Ranger and Triton in the 4x4 seg.

Not having a go, just stating relevant facts.

So if it aint broke dont fix it, doesnt really apply to toyota, its more, its broke and not fixed, annoying and our customers can put up with it.

That's the point I was making in the new defender thread. Toyota is actually not that reliable but peoples perception deem them to be and they keep buying them

The v8 and v6 Toyota engines were arguably more reliable then any of their current diesel options yet people flock to the diesel, only in Australia do we have such a love affair with diesel.

Originally Posted by 1nando

.... only in Australia do we have such a love affair with diesel.

Don't forget most of Europe too tho!.
UK have their love of diesels .. all about the economy(price) factor.

In Aus, it's more about the economy more than anything else.
Added to that the current preference for more and more top the power of more( .... to infinity) power, yet the local market wants all this power AND some economy too.
The Yanks seem to care zero about the notion of economy or fuel consumption .. just chuck in a larger V8 ... don't mind that it does 8MPG(in US terms)( .. more like 6MPG)

Not many other countries like here (maybe Africa) where you may need to drive 800 or more klms before the next fill up.
Carrying more fuel can be an option, so of course we have a very active aftermarket fuel tank accessorising sector, but carrying more fuel may not always be the best option too.

Originally Posted by AK83

Don't forget most of Europe too tho!.
UK have their love of diesels .. all about the economy(price) factor.

In Aus, it's more about the economy more than anything else.
Added to that the current preference for more and more top the power of more( .... to infinity) power, yet the local market wants all this power AND some economy too.
The Yanks seem to care zero about the notion of economy or fuel consumption .. just chuck in a larger V8 ... don't mind that it does 8MPG(in US terms)( .. more like 6MPG)

Not many other countries like here (maybe Africa) where you may need to drive 800 or more klms before the next fill up.
Carrying more fuel can be an option, so of course we have a very active aftermarket fuel tank accessorising sector, but carrying more fuel may not always be the best option too.

Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

Believe it or not the yanks are actually pretty smart on this topic unlike us in Australia. TFL truck is a great YouTube channel and they have many great videos explaining the pros and cons of gas v diesel and as an average 150,000kms is about the break even point.
Now if your like me and upgrade your car every 5 years then it's a simple option to buy petrol. As an example I'd have to do 500,000kms in my patrol for a vx 200 that costs $20k more to be a "economically wise decision", yet the 200 outsells the patrol 10-1. Australia loves diesel, as for this no petrol in the outback crap it's a load of BS!

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..

Have seen a couple of TFLs vids .. more so the OffRoad where they did a series on a D2)

Originally Posted by 1nando

Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

...

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..

In terms of ICE types in Europe, you claim the math is simple, yet it isn't like here in Aus.
Historically D fuel has always been cheaper in Europe than P.
About 10 years or so back, bro took family on European holiday(BMW3 + caravan) bought in UK(LHD) and off to the continent.

So(from a historical perspective) diesels have always been better value for money over there, irrespective of lifetime of ownership(ie. cost of servicing).
So, the D ICE is more economical, D fuel is cheaper, yet lifetime servicing cost a bit more. People can look for short term servicing discounts to offset the price difference .. but the every day cost was alsways lower for the D powered vehicle.
How this then translates is that on the secondhand market, the premium of the initial D fuelled vehicle comes back 10 fold to the owner in terms of retained value.
Petrol powered vehicles over in Europe are for lack of a better term .. worthless! They depreciate so badly,(simply because in the S/H market folks want even cheaper every day running costs).

Only reason I remember all this coz it took me and bro about 6 or more months perusing UK car ads to find a diesel powered car that wouldn't cost him arms and legs .. of all his family!

D1's V8s would sell for 100 UK pounds!(with MOT), cheapest D1 was 200tdis .. roughly in the $3000 pound range(and up!) .. why? who wants a guzzler.

10 years ago, there were no direct fuel injected petrol ICEs .. they were a min 20% less efficient(per litre) many 50% less efficient.
Now the gap has closed, mainly due to the heavier handed regs on D fuelled vehicles, and I dare say the VW debacle also has lots to do with how D fuelled cars sales are panning out.

So, the turning tide is primarily an 'enforced' one manufactured by Euro governments .. not a natural evolution of one.

For mine: I reckon a diesel hybrid would have to make the most sense as a daily drive vehicle. Shouldn't be hard to do properly .. still retain the ability to tow if those that need it want it(I don't).

ps. I've never been the type to sell cars in such short timeframes .. so my persepctive is always completely different.
My outlook on vehicle ownership has always been not just long term time frames .. but very very long distance travelled terms.

I’m in Europe now. Diesel is still cheaper in EU by at least 10 euro cents / litre.

Lots of Defenders on the road. No Landcruisers. Virtually no Toyota’s at all actually.
Plenty of VW and many other diesels.

Note to self: must clean out your very old unused, not needed bookmarks!

Just found the old bookmark that shows average Euro prices of fuels types.

On the whole cheaper as SpudHead said, but I noticed in the UK Diesel is more by a Euro cent or two.
They have something called B7(diesel fuel) .. may it's a premium ultra super soapy additive type like we have at some servos here.

Converted to our money .. at an average of Eur 1.50(ish) .. that's about Au 2.40/lt

if you were to drive holiday in Europe in a petrol powered vehicle(eg. a new model Patrol!) .. .. your Au dollar aint getting you very far.

Looking at the figures for Europe again in terms of percentage of diesel powered passenger cars(no breakdowns of SUV or hatch and stuff, just passenger cars) .. Note that commercial sales are 90+ % diesels, and in some countries 100%.
Passenger cars are interesting tho. Figures go from 2001 to 2017(that I can see now).
Diesels were fewer in percent terms in 2001 than 2017.
Averages are in the 30-40% diesels, some countries, France and lack locked Luxembourg are more 60-ish steady.
Over the time between 2001 and 2017, Diesels have gradually increased to roughly 60% across the board. Greece is weird .. apparently 1% .. but I reckon something wrong there, I don't have any family that don't run a diesel other than their scooters.

So diesel new cars dominate over petrol.

Other interesting numbers: Toyota, early 2000's hardly any diesels. 16%. Slowly picked up and peaked at about 40%(42 I think??)
Then it changed again with their hybrids dropping diesels numbers, and growing their electrified cars(I'm assuming Lexus also count as Toyota) Toyota is not large in Europe like here. between 10th and 7th less than a million units, usually less than half the regular Euro makers in numbers.
About 2005, they slowly increased both hybrids and diesels by percentage terms. People slowly got used too and accepted their hybrids and electrics and diesels.
By 2015 half their car sales were not pure petrol powered, and electrified still booming. 2017 8% diesel, 49% hybrid, a small percentage fuel cell straight electric types.

Volvo is interesting .. consistently 80% diesels .. I used to think Peugeot and VW/Audi were more diesel oriented makers .. but Volvo is .. same with Merc(60-ish%) and around about the 2010 mark BMW too(60% +)

Norway is also interesting as a country. Their figures only start in 2013, but consistently much higher average price for cars(incl taxes) .. in some instances $15-20K Euro average price above the norms for most of Europe. Switzerland, you'd expect higher average prices due to their average income per capita .. still .. Norway still Euro10-15K higher than Swiss!
The car power breakdown for Norway is 23% diesel 12.7% hybrid(except plug in) 19.7% plug in, 18.9% battery electric/fuel, so those figures assume 16% petrol(only) powered cars. Interesting considering Norway makes a pretty penny or billion out of oil production too!
Norway subsidises non ICE cars very heavily(near on 20K Euro per vehicle .. but then again they can afford it. I'm sure I saw Dave at EEVBlog discuss this.
No other country comes near them for 'greenified' passenger vehicle sales.

I think the dieselgate issue must have hit the Germans quite hard too. Consistently 47-49% range of cars sold were diesel, maybe a percent or two electric of some type. But since about 2014 diesels have declined(~ 39%), but alternative haven't increased by the same amount.
Thee are no petrol powered figures(that I can locate), so the assumption is if not diesel, nor alternative, then the loss of diesels percentage must translate to petrol ICE sales, only country in the figures to be doing so, against all the Euro trend.
Realistically too you'd expect Germany to have higher petrol car sales too .. autobahns must seem a lot nicer at 200+ k/h than at 180k/h in s noisy D motor!

One last anomaly about the figures. In the last 10 years Germans have bought 35 million new vehicles(roughly 3 million/year) .. ~ 1million more than the nearest next country.
What on earth do they do with that many vehicles every 10 years? Must export second hand cars to other places(say old eastern blocks places cheaply). 88million people buying 35million cars / 10 year period.

I think our car industry is 1 million /year. Actually doing the sums .... our appetite for new cars puts the Germans to shame.

Originally Posted by 1nando

Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

Believe it or not the yanks are actually pretty smart on this topic unlike us in Australia. TFL truck is a great YouTube channel and they have many great videos explaining the pros and cons of gas v diesel and as an average 150,000kms is about the break even point.
Now if your like me and upgrade your car every 5 years then it's a simple option to buy petrol. As an example I'd have to do 500,000kms in my patrol for a vx 200 that costs $20k more to be a "economically wise decision", yet the 200 outsells the patrol 10-1. Australia loves diesel, as for this no petrol in the outback crap it's a load of BS!

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..

But the owner that has paid the $20K more for the VX,will get a fair chunk of that back at resale,after 5 yrs,obviously depending on condition of vehicle,K's,etc.

Just saying,its not all money down the drain,and the vehicle has a 5 yr unlimited KM warranty,so if left stock,more than likely,no costs for repairs.

Back on topic,is it worth paying $12K extra for a petrol in the 2020 Deeefer?
Sure its nice to have a bit more power,torque,but is it an 'economically wise decision'?

Maybe not,how will resale go in 5 yrs,petrol verses diesel,who knows,we can only guess.
The petrol costs more,so the owner has more to lose,and LR's generally don't have good resale anyway.
A 5 yr warranty?Doesn't look like it,so maybe some repair costs for the vehicle owner.

There is certainly no trend in Aus of sales of petrol 4x4,and utes, increasing,at the moment,anyway.

Sure many are saying its going to happen,but they also say the place is soon going to be full of Ev's.
The sales of EV's in Aus haven't increased at all,and have actually dropped in many other countries.

Times are changing,its a lot of crystal ball stuff.

And everything we do doesn't have to be an economically wise decision,or life would be boring.