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Thread: Land Rover doesn't understand Australia - no ute !

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DazzaTD5 View Post
    *John, I'm saying its one of Land Rovers few saving graces, being able to access (at a reasonable cost, which is fair enough) all info, manuals etc which is something pretty well most manufacturers dont do. It's almost like they support independent repairers, which is pretty good.
    Fair enough. I misread your point.However, you surprise me. Maybe LR need to do this as they have reduced dealer numbers substantially. You'd know more about that than me.

    Supporting indies is a rare thing today.
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    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. Sir Terry Pratchett

    2000 D2 TD5 Auto: Tins
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJon View Post
    By some driveline stuff, you mean the entire driveline in the volume selling 4 cylinder versions?
    I did say "some models". Which models were "volume selling"? I thought the whole thing was a flop because the only people who cared about the Three Pointed Star badge wanted a real Benz, not a Nissan, and so they couldn't give the "volume selling" things away. Who'd pay the premium for what was essentially already a loser in this market simply because it spit polished its boots? And who'd buy the real Benz ones when a Toyota was cheaper and very likely better and there was a dealer next door. It was one of the more weird marketing attempts I've seen in this country. Beaten by the Toyota Lexcen, but only just.

    IMO, Mercedes cheapened their brand entering this market, a market they could never win in in this country. { Dunno how they do in Europe and I ain't looking } The work ute sector in Oz is dominated by the HiLux, except in the 4WD segment, where it's the Ranger on top. Benz should stick to their knitting. They make what is arguably the best road legal off road vehicle in the world, The Unimog. They also make what might be the second best ( more arguably this time ), the GelanderWagen. They have, without doubt, the ability to create a replacement for what this thread is bemoaning. The fact that they don't, Military excepted, suggests that the market no longer exists... OK, the 7x Toyota fills a gap. That car is nearly finished. Let's see if Toyota can be bothered.

    Oh, yeah...; "some driveline stuff". If you want a Benz ute, buy a Musso. Don't think there's any Nissan DNA there. Mitsubishi Triton perhaps? It's so hard to keep up.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]



    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. Sir Terry Pratchett

    2000 D2 TD5 Auto: Tins
    1994 D1 300TDi Manual: Dave
    1980 SIII Petrol Tray: Doris

  3. #63
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackrangie View Post
    When its stated as fact, its misinformation imo.

    Infact the first article in this thread started it all, very factless.
    BR - your membership to the JLR fan club is appreciated, but it has been stated by JLR that they have no current production plans to make a ute and whilst you are correct it has not been ruled out - gee anything is possible - a high level insider confirming to a journalist that development of a ute option has been cancelled at this point in time is I am sure pretty accurate and based on facts. Your constant dismissing of peoples frustration with the path JLR is taking just shows a lack of empathy - very similar level of response coming out of JLR. It is interesting that LR purist have been as passionately annoyed with the New Discovery as others are with the New Defender for pretty much all the same reasons. The New Defender is about winning D3/D4 owners back over as they realise we are more likely to now spend money on retaining our current vehicles than buy a New Discovery. I am sure you will love your New Defender and there will be plenty of posts and pictures shown.

    I personally believe we will now see a re-resurgence in upgrade mods being offered for the D3/D4 as this makes a good platform for customisation, along with more people who will now hold on to their old Defenders. Right now owning a D3 or 4 along with a old 90 or 110 would be a good combination. I even expect dual cab conversions for the D3/D4 will become more common as it is relatively easy to do (thanks to the body on chassis design). It is like Land Rover developed this brilliant integrated body on chassis design with so much options for different variations (beyond the wagon) but never took it to the next level. They got it right with the RRC when they used hand-me down parts and tooling to make the D1 for low development cost with new engine options and it was a winner that hit the right balance between old tech foundations and new ideas at the right price. The D2 went on to be the best RRC ever in either V8 or Td5 version - and even when new it was a bargain for what you got.

    JLR current focus is on the next replacement Range Rover, and then on entering the luxury car (not SUV) space with a RR crossover. They want to be a boutique manufacturer of bespoke relatively low volume high margin branded products - sold to people who buy as a fashion statement - like people who think LR branded mud-flaps are important. The New Defender is thankfully a step in the right direction for those that want a highly capable 4WD family wagon - and keeps the dream alive for some of us. The smart money would be to stick with the base model and minimise the options and not fall for the bling on offer. Even charging $6K just to go from D200 to D240 is a joke ($6K for a remap that delivers no extra torque - Td5Inside has possibly missed a marketing opportunity here!) - just buy a D200 and stick a D240 badge on the back.

    I remain confident that Tata will have other plans for the Utility market, but I speculate that the most likely outcome is this would be a spin off and not direct from JLR. More like a TLR (Tata Land Rover) brand than a JLR development and it can even come with some of old faults and reliability issues - because if the DNA is correct it will still be loved and they will sell a lot of them. The high volume market can also be profitable as Ford show with F150.

    In the meantime, just recognise not all die-hard LR fans like the direction now being taken - even if we do all get it is about making money not cars. It is not just here in Australia we are seeing this frustration play out. To some extent I think it is a mistake to even use the Defender brand name as it is a painful reminder of what is now missing from the LR brand. Don't expect many old LR owners waving at New Defenders as they come down the road - although some may be waving to warn you that you have a box falling off the side of the vehicle - heh heh.

    The New Defender will be a success, not because it is a Defender, but because it takes the Discovery down the correct path. If I ever get a New Defender (would now be second hand and not new) - my first upgrade would be to remove D E F E N D E R off the front bonnet and replace with D I S C O V E R Y. Then it will look correct. The New Defender - The Best Discovery ever made!.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoDB View Post
    The New Defender - The Best Discovery ever made!.
    How Much Have You Had to Drink Today Sir?
    Quote Originally Posted by DazzaTD5 View Post
    Its a land Rover Defender... you need a real mechanic

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eevo View Post
    How Much Have You Had to Drink Today Sir?
    Brilliant - not enough apparently!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoDB View Post
    BR - your membership to the JLR fan club is appreciated, but it has been stated by JLR that they have no current production plans to make a ute and whilst you are correct it has not been ruled out - gee anything is possible - a high level insider confirming to a journalist that development of a ute option has been cancelled at this point in time is I am sure pretty accurate and based on facts. Your constant dismissing of peoples frustration with the path JLR is taking just shows a lack of empathy - very similar level of response coming out of JLR. It is interesting that LR purist have been as passionately annoyed with the New Discovery as others are with the New Defender for pretty much all the same reasons. The New Defender is about winning D3/D4 owners back over as they realise we are more likely to now spend money on retaining our current vehicles than buy a New Discovery. I am sure you will love your New Defender and there will be plenty of posts and pictures shown.

    I personally believe we will now see a re-resurgence in upgrade mods being offered for the D3/D4 as this makes a good platform for customisation, along with more people who will now hold on to their old Defenders. Right now owning a D3 or 4 along with a old 90 or 110 would be a good combination. I even expect dual cab conversions for the D3/D4 will become more common as it is relatively easy to do (thanks to the body on chassis design). It is like Land Rover developed this brilliant integrated body on chassis design with so much options for different variations (beyond the wagon) but never took it to the next level. They got it right with the RRC when they used hand-me down parts and tooling to make the D1 for low development cost with new engine options and it was a winner that hit the right balance between old tech foundations and new ideas at the right price. The D2 went on to be the best RRC ever in either V8 or Td5 version - and even when new it was a bargain for what you got.

    JLR current focus is on the next replacement Range Rover, and then on entering the luxury car (not SUV) space with a RR crossover. They want to be a boutique manufacturer of bespoke relatively low volume high margin branded products - sold to people who buy as a fashion statement - like people who think LR branded mud-flaps are important. The New Defender is thankfully a step in the right direction for those that want a highly capable 4WD family wagon - and keeps the dream alive for some of us. The smart money would be to stick with the base model and minimise the options and not fall for the bling on offer. Even charging $6K just to go from D200 to D240 is a joke ($6K for a remap that delivers no extra torque - Td5Inside has possibly missed a marketing opportunity here!) - just buy a D200 and stick a D240 badge on the back.

    I remain confident that Tata will have other plans for the Utility market, but I speculate that the most likely outcome is this would be a spin off and not direct from JLR. More like a TLR (Tata Land Rover) brand than a JLR development and it can even come with some of old faults and reliability issues - because if the DNA is correct it will still be loved and they will sell a lot of them. The high volume market can also be profitable as Ford show with F150.

    In the meantime, just recognise not all die-hard LR fans like the direction now being taken - even if we do all get it is about making money not cars. It is not just here in Australia we are seeing this frustration play out. To some extent I think it is a mistake to even use the Defender brand name as it is a painful reminder of what is now missing from the LR brand. Don't expect many old LR owners waving at New Defenders as they come down the road - although some may be waving to warn you that you have a box falling off the side of the vehicle - heh heh.

    The New Defender will be a success, not because it is a Defender, but because it takes the Discovery down the correct path. If I ever get a New Defender (would now be second hand and not new) - my first upgrade would be to remove D E F E N D E R off the front bonnet and replace with D I S C O V E R Y. Then it will look correct. The New Defender - The Best Discovery ever made!.
    Nice long story and little public shaming session haha some good points though, If someone refutes something ususually the first thing people do is attack (saying im a member of the JLR fanclub??)no empathy by pointing out that article is factless, mate come on?? Me taking the time out of my day to post up that the naysayers may be wrong and that there may be a Ute after all is very empathetic to the cause.

    As i said before the first article is completely factless, the "insider" is nameless and could be anyone who is not in the loop (NDA) and is note aware of the ute project or its codename.

    My "insider" (dealer) says I'm very confident a ute is on the way from what ive seen. I don't give that any weight though.

    I do give weight though as above to 2 articles where 2 JLR reps said on record a Ute is being considered and 1 said definitely.

    100% we may not see a ute, will i care personslly, no, will i care for others that wanted a JLR ute yes if they cant make do with a covered one? Yes (110 or 130 wagon) However the facts currently point much more to we will see one than wont.

    So no I'm not shutting people down and not letting them vent their frustrations, I was correcting misinformation that started a whole thread of whinging about something that is factless. Forums allow both sides of the argument.

    Your welcome to put a discovery badge on your new defender, for me i will rightfully be keeping mine front and centre. The new defender is in so many ways more defender than the old one, capability, durability, driveability, quality, strength etc.(my opinion) Others will say the old one is more (for different reasons) and they can be right too.

    Let me know when you find out the answers to the following and have compared these stats to the last gen defender.

    Why can the luggage box can only be fitted to the drivers side

    What angles will the rear door stay open?

    Can you use the dash to push the car in neutral?

    How many design cues point to the previous gen defender?

    Can you winch off the dash grab handle?

    How many tonnes of force can go through the body upwards?

    How many tonnes can front and rear recovery points take?

    How much load can the roof take?

    Is the interior washout?

    What angles can it drive on?

    How much water can it wade and how long can it sit in it if you get stuck? Can you open the doors mid crossing if you start to float?

    How much of the defender is new compared to the discovery for example?

    Hope this helps and i hope you get your ute.

  8. #68
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    Land Rover doesn't understand Australia - no ute !

    All good contributions BR - just show some more understanding for why some (if not many) are disappointed with the direction JLR are taking. None of us have to agree with each other.

    I am a Disco person myself and think the New Defender is brilliant but I get why so many feel they now miss out. Two new models now have turned LR lovers against each other.

    P.s - edit: and I hope we do get a low cost entry point Ute - but I suspect it will take some pretty vocal campaigning from the LR fan base to make this happen.

  9. #69
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    Those of you who are wondering why JLR, a small volume manufacturer, has gone totally into the luxury market need to read "My Years with General Motors" by Alfred Sloan. Sloan gives the example of building a Chevrolet for $x and selling it it for 1.5x against building a Cadillac for 1.5x or 2x and selling it for 3x or 4x. I don't remember the figures he used and don't have time to peruse my copy to find them. This is why every automobile manufacturer on the planet now has a luxury line or division even the ones who previously only made ****box family cars.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoDB View Post
    All good contributions BR - but just
    show some more understanding for why some (if not many) are disappointed with the direction JLR are taking.

    Why be disappointed,thats the way they have gone,and thats it.

    Some being disappointed won't help anyone.

    JLR don't give a hoot,they have moved on,and are not going to make any changes because a few are disappointed with what they produce today.

    If they didn't move on in the direction they are going,they wouldn't be here anymore.

    If they have vehicles that don't suit someone,then there are many other brands to choose from.

    Times change,regulations change,safety,emissions,the market place,etc,etc,etc,etc,its all changing,and has changed immensely over the years.

    They are producing luxury SUV's,as they seem to be called these days.

    Back to the ute,from what i have heard its dead,from a good source,but others say the opposite,thats fine,lets see what happens.

    I personally think they would be better putting more R&D into the existing range they have,than developing a vehicle for a highly competitive segment of the market that is already flooded with numerous brands,not just here,but world wide.

    LR would need to have a very good business case to develop a Ute,even if it was 'relatively easy' due to using existing vehicle platforms.
    paul

    D4 MY12 white,2.7(with a few more killer wasps) rear air,e diff,xenons,arb bar,7 seat ,18" bfg KO2

    2009 Defender 110 (son's)ARB
    bar,snorkle,rocksliders,rack,KM2's,BAS chip, always needs a wash

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