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Thread: Lithium battery configuration

  1. #1
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    Lithium battery configuration

    Thinking of this for my Defender.
    I always seem to be running close to the bone with 3x 105 amp full river batteries when camping. I run a CPAP, & 2x fridges - 1 as a freezer & lighting etc.
    If I bought this setup - 4x 3.2 200 amp batteries & a renology 60 amp DC TO DC charger, would I need a separate BMS ( Battery Management System - Board) to safely operate this setup? Also, is 60 amp overkill for a 200 amp installation?

    s-l1600.jpg


    I might add that the Full River batteries are getting on, so this would be close to the cost of replacements.
    DeeJay
    1999 Defender Wagon
    1977 SWB Hardtop

  2. #2
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    Hi Deejay, if you are using nearly 300Ah of AGM battery power, then you need 300Ah of lithium.

    Do not take any notice of the B/S claims that you get more from a lithium battery than you will from the same size AGM battery.

  3. #3
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    Iím nearly ready to have a play with building a Lithium Battery purchasing the components from a guy in AUS. More as a learning, donít really have a need for it, maybe itíll end up with the kids.

    Been watching his videos and you need to install a BMS to protect the batteries......DC-DC will not protect your battery from overcharge along with other bits and pieces.

    battery balancer , this is something else to consider......if batteries are brand new than you can opt not to install one. On receiving your batteries a quick check and youíll know how balanced they are.

    Iíll track down the links as post them, they are worth watching even if you donít but any components off him.

    Iím certainly far from an expert but keen to watch your build to learn more.

    200ah is a good starting place.

  4. #4
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    Not sure what your are paying for your cells.......

    Iím looking at the DIY 100ah kit...

    Anyways, I reckon the video ls in the link below are handy. He explain protection, balancing etc.

    LiFePO4 12V 100Ah DIY Kit

  5. #5
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    the key benefit of lithium batteries in terms of power delivered (and this is where the claim of "more" comes from) is in the curve of the delivery.

    normal batteries flatten at a fairly linear rate, lithiums hold voltage for a long time then drop sharply (roughly speaking)

    where this comes into play is when you're at say 50% discharged and still trying to draw the same number of watts (lets go with an inverter, some kind of smart dive load likea modern fridge or DC-DC charger) W=V*A so if the voltage is dropping you have to pull more amps. A higher Amps draw means your voltage drops faster so a lithium system may appear to deliver more power for longer in a single continuous run , lithiums have a very poor "recovery" between load events. More on this after the

    HOWEVER.....

    roughly speaking, what they dont tell you is if you're driving a dumb load (led lights, filament bulbs, simple transistor tech) Amps= V/R so as your available voltage drops off the Amps drawn decreases. On some items like incandescent bulbs yes the light out put drops off BUT, the battery will continue to try to drive the load until it goes flat where as a lithium will just cut out more or less all of a sudden

    and that

    "Recovery" is that phenomenon where if you turn off a torch with alkaline batteries that are at say25% life and the lights getting a little dim, when you turn it back on 5 minutes later its at full brightness for a short period.


    For my money,

    if you can afford them and need to save the weight and get the maximum single draw use for your money, go lithium. If you can afford the weight and need a better load cycling capacity go lead acid and yes within the next 5-10 years that will change.

    oh, also on lithiums, if you run them in series if one goes it all stops, if one drops a cell it generally stops unless you have internal parallel banking fuses
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    the key benefit of lithium batteries in terms of power delivered (and this is where the claim of "more" comes from) is in the curve of the delivery.

    normal batteries flatten at a fairly linear rate, lithiums hold voltage for a long time then drop sharply (roughly speaking)

    where this comes into play is when you're at say 50% discharged and still trying to draw the same number of watts (lets go with an inverter, some kind of smart dive load likea modern fridge or DC-DC charger) W=V*A so if the voltage is dropping you have to pull more amps. A higher Amps draw means your voltage drops faster so a lithium system may appear to deliver more power for longer in a single continuous run , lithiums have a very poor "recovery" between load events. More on this after the

    HOWEVER.....

    roughly speaking, what they dont tell you is if you're driving a dumb load (led lights, filament bulbs, simple transistor tech) Amps= V/R so as your available voltage drops off the Amps drawn decreases. On some items like incandescent bulbs yes the light out put drops off BUT, the battery will continue to try to drive the load until it goes flat where as a lithium will just cut out more or less all of a sudden

    and that

    "Recovery" is that phenomenon where if you turn off a torch with alkaline batteries that are at say25% life and the lights getting a little dim, when you turn it back on 5 minutes later its at full brightness for a short period.


    For my money,

    if you can afford them and need to save the weight and get the maximum single draw use for your money, go lithium. If you can afford the weight and need a better load cycling capacity go lead acid and yes within the next 5-10 years that will change.

    oh, also on lithiums, if you run them in series if one goes it all stops, if one drops a cell it generally stops unless you have internal parallel banking fuses
    Interesting reading Dave.......

    Just wondering what lithiumís youíre running and level off testing on the road/camping.

    Re: poor recovery, we use ours for induction cooking anywhere between 400w to 1800w. Iíve done back to back, with short breaks, boiling water @ 1800w and the system has performed faultlessly.

    Re: dumb load, havenít experience what you have suggested, I guess Iíve size my capacity correctly. A bright light longer far out ways a slowly dulling light. If a 12v oven is classed as a dumb load than Iím also way ahead when compared to running it off the AGM in regards to oven temp.

    A side note on charging, sure I now have more monitoring but I know know exactly where my SoC is at and can closely predict when Iím going to be back at 100% at my finger tips when driving....something I didnít have on my previous AGM setup.

    Re: affordability....yeah initial outlay is high but Iíve gone from watching a volt gauge all the time to pretty much to no longer worrying about capacity. I pretty much tripled my capacity for no weight gain along with ditching gas. Perfect for us for our 2 year lap, based on our shorter trips to date we have more than enough capacity to pretty much forget about our 12v systems for the duration of the trip.

    For us, the upgrade has been great, set and forget.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by W&KO View Post
    Interesting reading Dave.......

    Just wondering what lithiumís youíre running and level off testing on the road/camping.

    Re: poor recovery, we use ours for induction cooking anywhere between 400w to 1800w. Iíve done back to back, with short breaks, boiling water @ 1800w and the system has performed faultlessly.

    Re: dumb load, havenít experience what you have suggested, I guess Iíve size my capacity correctly. A bright light longer far out ways a slowly dulling light. If a 12v oven is classed as a dumb load than Iím also way ahead when compared to running it off the AGM in regards to oven temp.

    A side note on charging, sure I now have more monitoring but I know know exactly where my SoC is at and can closely predict when Iím going to be back at 100% at my finger tips when driving....something I didnít have on my previous AGM setup.

    Re: affordability....yeah initial outlay is high but Iíve gone from watching a volt gauge all the time to pretty much to no longer worrying about capacity. I pretty much tripled my capacity for no weight gain along with ditching gas. Perfect for us for our 2 year lap, based on our shorter trips to date we have more than enough capacity to pretty much forget about our 12v systems for the duration of the trip.

    For us, the upgrade has been great, set and forget.

    Personally I'm running some not insubstantial lead acids, why? cause I get em for free and arkies not exactly struggling for net capacity on payload. I've not yet run lithium personally and most of my experience with them comes from trying to help sort out systems that have been bought by people based on the hype. (along the lines of "why yes sir, this 50Ah lithium will work just like a 100Ah lead acid and you charge it with this here 10aDCDC" only to find that their using it like they used to use their old Lead acid so they're never fully charging the battery with short runs)

    Taking some guesses you've never needed to exploit the "recovery" that you can get with lead acid with your lithium and if you've tripled your capacity and maintained the same weight of batteries I'm guessing you've got in the vicinity of 1000Ah on hand and have never taken it as a whole below the 30/40% remaining mark. Which leaves entirely unsurprising that you can run what you run the way you run it, Given that sort of operation I'm going to take a stab at about a 6 year life on your batteries (assuming they are middle of the road quality not the super exxy ones and not the cheap nasties) until they degrade to below the 70% life capacity.

    I am curious as to how you're configured.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW Australia
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    Eight years ago I swapped the Oka house batteries to a 400ah lithium bank made up of Winston cells instead of the existing 480ah house battery of four 120ah AGMs.
    Weight went from 154 kgs to 58kgs and since then I've never had to worry about a lack of power. We run just under 1100w of solar and that is the only charging system, no input from the truck electrics at all. We do have an inbuilt 240v charger that is turned on once a fortnight when we are home and the truck is in the shed but in "use" as the fridge freezer is always on.
    We have no gas and cooking is done on either a diesel cooktop or induction, heating and hot water is all diesel. Normal 240v appliances are used, electric jug, toaster, microwave, bread maker, electric blankets in cold weather plus 240v chargers for laptops and power tools. Fridge/freezer is 12v and I run a CPAP with humidifier every night on 12v, lighting is all LED and we have a myriad of USB and fag sockets for charging all the electronic devices as well as an inbuilt 12v stereo radio music player.
    We sat for three weeks in a partially shaded campsite through this last wet summer and the house battery never dropped below 60% SOC despite all cooking being done on either the induction or microwave as using the diesel cooktop in hot weather tends to heat the interior quite a bit so we don't use it if it's warm.
    With careful usage we can last for at least a week with minimal solar in bad weather before having to contemplate moving to a sunnier position.
    A recent capacity test after the eight years of continuous use showed no decrease in the advertised capacity.
    I would never go back to LA's again. If I could work out where to mount the indoor unit I would fit a 2kw domestic split aircon system as the electrics could happily cope with the extra load.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by oka374 View Post
    Eight years ago I swapped the Oka house batteries to a 400ah lithium bank made up of Winston cells instead of the existing 480ah house battery of four 120ah AGMs.
    Weight went from 154 kgs to 58kgs and since then I've never had to worry about a lack of power. We run just under 1100w of solar and that is the only charging system, no input from the truck electrics at all. We do have an inbuilt 240v charger that is turned on once a fortnight when we are home and the truck is in the shed but in "use" as the fridge freezer is always on.
    We have no gas and cooking is done on either a diesel cooktop or induction, heating and hot water is all diesel. Normal 240v appliances are used, electric jug, toaster, microwave, bread maker, electric blankets in cold weather plus 240v chargers for laptops and power tools. Fridge/freezer is 12v and I run a CPAP with humidifier every night on 12v, lighting is all LED and we have a myriad of USB and fag sockets for charging all the electronic devices as well as an inbuilt 12v stereo radio music player.
    We sat for three weeks in a partially shaded campsite through this last wet summer and the house battery never dropped below 60% SOC despite all cooking being done on either the induction or microwave as using the diesel cooktop in hot weather tends to heat the interior quite a bit so we don't use it if it's warm.
    With careful usage we can last for at least a week with minimal solar in bad weather before having to contemplate moving to a sunnier position.
    A recent capacity test after the eight years of continuous use showed no decrease in the advertised capacity.
    I would never go back to LA's again. If I could work out where to mount the indoor unit I would fit a 2kw domestic split aircon system as the electrics could happily cope with the extra load.
    whats your battery/charger configuration and rates?
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    1,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    Personally I'm running some not insubstantial lead acids, why? cause I get em for free and arkies not exactly struggling for net capacity on payload. I've not yet run lithium personally and most of my experience with them comes from trying to help sort out systems that have been bought by people based on the hype. (along the lines of "why yes sir, this 50Ah lithium will work just like a 100Ah lead acid and you charge it with this here 10aDCDC" only to find that their using it like they used to use their old Lead acid so they're never fully charging the battery with short runs)

    Taking some guesses you've never needed to exploit the "recovery" that you can get with lead acid with your lithium and if you've tripled your capacity and maintained the same weight of batteries I'm guessing you've got in the vicinity of 1000Ah on hand and have never taken it as a whole below the 30/40% remaining mark. Which leaves entirely unsurprising that you can run what you run the way you run it, Given that sort of operation I'm going to take a stab at about a 6 year life on your batteries (assuming they are middle of the road quality not the super exxy ones and not the cheap nasties) until they degrade to below the 70% life capacity.

    I am curious as to how you're configured.
    No where near 1000ah,

    My loose numbers for triple capacity is based on how I choose to use the batteries, and Im on the leave the starter battery out of the equation side of tie fence.

    I started with a 105ah AGM which I tried not to go below 50% which gave me 50ah best case.

    Installed 200ah lithium which is set to cut out at 18% which gives me ~160ah = 3 times what my AGM gave me.

    Re: recovery, still confused on what you mean?

    Re: life of my lithium, it only need to last for 3 years, why, it factored in to our trip.......it coming up to 1yr old and has a capacity off 203ah, no loses to date.

    Config.
    200ah lithium
    40a DC-DC, on a bright sunny day I get ~8 ish amps from solar while driving
    240w solar
    2000w inverter

    As mentioned earlier, it working fine and not seeing the issues raised, one less thing to worry about day too day.

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